The Ideal Cruiser - a long range passagemaker

Discussion in 'Projects & Proposals' started by D'ARTOIS, Sep 9, 2005.

  1. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    There are several Dutch designers that I like. They design , in my opinion, more seaworthy boats than the French or Italian ones, that design mainly boats for the Mediterranean waters.

    I like particularly Dick Koopmans and I love the global approach that he takes on the sailing boat. For him there is not a perfect sailboat, but there is one that is suited for each individual person. Take a look at his site and look at the different hulls and his explanations of the advantages and disadvantages of each one.

    http://www.dickkoopmans.nl/uk/index.htm


    D'Artois, I don’t see any quarrel around here, I see people that love boats and I see different choices to the (my) perfect boat. Any other way it would be very boring and poor.

    About budgets I don't agree with you . Fact is that a smaller boat costs less and takes less time to build. About people taking a lot of years (without sailing) dreaming and building a boat, most that I know never finished the boat and sold it before completion, others finished the boat but sold it a short time after, to build a new one. New dreams!
    About building a boat, I have already rebuild and modify a traditional sail boat (7.5m). It was 25 years ago and it has taken me 2 years and a lot of time. Of course, today if I had to take that time from my very busy life (and I couldn’t), it would cost me a lot less if I paid a naval carpenter to do the job.

    So, I believe that you will pay less and will sail away faster in a smaller boat ( sail away here is the more important thing), and as you know the price of the boat has to do mostly with weight, not with size and that means that a 50 ft boat will cost probably 2 times more then a 40ft and a 45ft almost the double of a 38ft.

    The question here is ( at least for me) how small can a cruising boat be to have a couple living aboard for extensive periods and yet be seaworthy, reasonable fast and have a good autonomy, providing adequate comfort.

    Why two people?, because most of boats (at least here and in the Med) with people living or traveling extensively have a couple on board and that seems to be the more usual situation (it will be mine too).

    Wynand has chosen a 38ft. For me it is the minimum I would consider, and I would not go bigger than 42 or 43ft. Costs (or time if you would want to put it another way) are the main reason.

    By the way, this one by Dick Koopmans is near to be my perfect sail boat:

    http://www.victoire.nl/schepen.php?boot=7

    Fast, seaworthy, comfortable (with two separate living zones, one up, other down), well built.....anything good…. except the price :(
     
  2. D'ARTOIS
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    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    Dick Koopmans is without any doubt the nestor designer of the long passagemakers. His boats are timeless of design, reasonable fast and very, very seaworthy and very, very expensive. Keeping good values too - if there is one on the market, it will fetch more than the original costs. His boats are still in high demand. His designs are well proven and have seen a lot of this world and were even in the both of the arctics.
    I know Dick quite well and it is always good to listen to him since he doesn't do the talk, but also the walk, to speak in Bob's language. He is not the designer from the drawing board but also a highly experienced long distance sailor, who brought a lot of personal experience into his designs.

    So, Paulo, you have every reason to like his designs, they are among the best to be found.

    About the light displacement boats, I remember clearly that Henk Jukkema did the OSTAR in a boat that was made by Shipyard 't Waar, Groningen, that could be almost an ULDB 10.10 mtrs long, not even 3 meters wide and quite a tall rig. With that little machine, he crossed the Alantic twice, not in great comfort, but at that time he was still young and did not bother. The wooden boat came back in one piece and hearing his stories, it was not that bad.

    I have sailed also a north sea pilot Botter, a traditional flatbottom ship with side-boards, and that one was a nightmare to sail. Sluggish, difficult to point, in my opinion one of the worst designs of Dutch shipbuilding. Unseaworthy - due to the very low stern ( to get the fishing gear in the boat, very vulnerable to aftcoming seas. Not all the Dutch boats are that good....
    Those boats were heavy for the simple reason that wood when it gets wet losses half of the strength. So they had to be build oversized.
    As long as you could keep the bow in the wnd, nothing could happen to you, but if you wer caught by an aft incoming sea, you were lost. Witnessed by the hundreds of Botters that shipwrecked over the last decades.

    If you don't live continuopus on your boat but just make extended cruises, for several months in the year, then depending on the crew it has to hous, Anything above 40' will do nicely.

    There are still a variety of boats that sail the world, heavy, light, medium, it is often a matter of money and possibilities. Even then, I have given the example of Chichester, that had a ship sepcially designed and made for a long voyage, the design - in chichester's opinion, was not a success at all. He made it grace to his seamanship and - maybe the boat wasn't that bad at all.
     
  3. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    While cruising a couple is all most boats need to accomidate.

    But Ocean Voyaging is far more enjoyable if the folks aboard are not tired all the time.

    We are able to carry 1 or 2 extra hands , just for the sea portion of a cruise.33ft loa

    With 3 folks 3 hours on & 6 off make for a relaxing trip.

    IF 4 are aboard we usually have one person be cook for the day the others doing 3&6.

    As most of my friends are working stiffs , there is no problem for them to get a couple of weeks vacation to do NY Bermuda, St Thomas , and (happily) fly home on their dime.From St Thomas the winter tour is only a series of day hops to most anywhere.

    FAST FRED
     
  4. stewi
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    stewi Junior Member

  5. D'ARTOIS
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    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    I did not know that you were in the funeral business FF :cool:
     
  6. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Mr Jim Cooper please call me Paulo or Vega (Vega II is my boat's name :) ).

    About heavy boats and sails, the naval architects of CDE-Danish Design say it better than me:

    "Some General Views on the Choice of Yacht Where many sailors share the opinion that the heavier the yacht is, the better, the opposite is often the case.

    The heavier the yacht is, the larger the volume of the hull. This will in many cases have a negative influence on the lines of the hull, so that it may look a bit clumsy.
    The heavier the yacht is, the more sail it has to carry to be able to sail satisfactory.
    The heavier the yacht is, the harder it is to handle for a small crew.
    One can say that an evil circle has started, where the yacht tends to end up as clumsy and hard to handle and may not live up to ones expectations."


    And they don't design only light displacement boats as you can see in one of their new designs:

    (Look at the long keel boat in "news")

    http://www.cde-dmd.com/eng/

    Me too Mr Cooper….., my women (wife and daughter) don't, or at least they put a limit to the days without restaurants and shopping. We reach an agreement of 3 days mooring, one day at the marina(s), and I can tell you I consider myself a lucky guy because all my sailing friends have much worst deals with their wives ;).

    This year, in the summer, I have been cruising in the Balearic Isles and over there a place for a 36ft boat costs around 50 euros. I let you imagine the price for a 45/50ft, but I can tell you that it is a lot more. :rolleyes:

    Best regards

    Paulo
     
  7. stewi
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    stewi Junior Member

    In defense to the larger boats, if you are only looking for restaurants and no shower, there may be places without charge at public docks in Mallorca, of the Balearic islands, such as Puerto Andraix and Palma.
     
  8. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "The heavier the yacht is, the larger the volume of the hull. This will in many cases have a negative influence on the lines of the hull, so that it may look a bit clumsy."

    *But of course there are tens of thousands of heavy displacement boats that look just grand.

    "The heavier the yacht is, the more sail it has to carry to be able to sail satisfactory."

    * Satisfactory is an interesting concept.

    For the 35 ft boat to get to 7K it takes whole sail , lots of tending and a good breeze. For a 50 ft boat to go 7K all it takes is a staysail .
    The 35 ft is doing 1.35 X hull speed , which takes huge relative power, the 50 ft boat is doing unity (1) so the loads and sail areas are relativly miniscule.

    "The heavier the yacht is, the harder it is to handle for a small crew."

    * Actually the larger & heavier yacht is a far more stable platform and is far easier to operate , hand reef & steer.More comfortable to be on and far easier to cook aboard.

    "One can say that an evil circle has started, where the yacht tends to end up as clumsy and hard to handle and may not live up to ones expectations."

    *The big relativly simple heavy disp boat will outrun the smaller boat , and the big boat will easily carry a load for a small crew , but the 35 ft may be 6 inches below the DWL just to get the required gear & stores aboard.

    Big ain't bad , but UGLY is bad , in any size.

    FAST FRED
     
  9. JimCooper
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    JimCooper Junior Member

    Fred , Vega

    Vega I would disagree with you heartily, I have a lot of time on both light and heavy boats as have others here such as Mr D'Artois.

    This is one of those factors I ffel is being driven by the industry the designers tell the public what they want to hear. The information is usually contrary to my own experience. there is a real problem in the industry with lack of experience among designers themselves as well as their clients. Some designers have never been offshore and yet they claim all manner of reasons for light boats because thats the urban mythology of the day.

    Ted Brewer often refewrs to has a comfort factor for a design that is worth applying . Its displacement divided by an adjusted waterplane with a big penalty for beam. From my own experience I would strongly support this, I rate comfort highly . I disagree with the performance issues, it is only light air that is a problem in a heavy boat, and heavy boats can be designed fast and pretty, they are easier to keep your feet adeck at sea too.

    Cheers
    Jim
     
  10. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

     
  11. Packeteer
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    Packeteer Junior Member

    nice boat Vega, but its a bit fat :p

    longer and slimmer for me
     
  12. marshmat
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    marshmat Senior Member

    A lot of nice cruisers out there.....
    I'll throw in my $0.02 worth, not that anyone has reason to care.

    For sailing:
    L ~15m
    B ~4m
    D ~3m
    Full keel
    Schooner or junk rig (possibly a hefty freestanding rig)

    Power (which I admittedly prefer):
    L ~20-22m
    B ~4m
    D <1.5m
    No more than about 60t displacement
    Twin screws, brushless DC engines from SOFC fuel cells or dual diesel generators

    Some may think it large, but I prefer long and thin to short and fat- and I'd rather lie at anchor anyway, rather than deal with piddly little guest piers everywhere.
     
  13. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

  14. Wynand N
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    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Project abanded :?:
     

  15. D'ARTOIS
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    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    Hopefully not. But you see Wynand how diverted the opinions are and how close they come together sometimes.

    Two topics are running about the same subject and what I see is that we are indeed looking at boats, like the Morris 51, or the Luffe that only a few can afford, - a newly build Koopmans of 45" will cost you about Euro 300,000.-- including sails and navionics if you know how to manage such a project. That means, if you have sufficient knowledge. The 6' longer Morris 51 will cost me, if I should build the boat, about the double.

    I show you some examples.

    An aluminium build Madeira 43' hull will cost you about Euro 60.000,-- ex vat.
    The same but Koopmans or Dick Zaal wil cost you approx. 75.000,-- ex vat.
    Amounts that are affordable and the rest of the boat will be spread over 3 to 5 years. that's how a long distance cruiser arranges for his goal.

    If you go to Poland, you pay even less. Go to Rumania you pay even lesser - some people do already and there are yachtbuilders that emigrated to Rumania due to the cheap labour.

    A casco odf 50 'might cost you about 25.000 Euro - if you know the tricks.

    If I look for a long distance cruiser I would look for a steel boat, maybe an aluminium one, length around 45 to 50' - medium displacement, probably equipped with a liftkeel, although this is a real obstacle in your boat. But the advantages are worth this.

    A doghouse is an absolute must - and the ideal one is to be found on the Morris 51.

    In my next post, I will show my preferred design, from Dick Zaal, called "Adrenalin" I believe the best of two worlds.
     
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