The Ideal Cruiser - a long range passagemaker

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Wynand N

Blazing saddles, to think I gave a complete set of v/d Stadt 40 Carribean/Norman plans away to a friend for a book....

There are some confusion here. D'Artois and you keep talking about the "Norman 40". That's an old design by Van de Stadt.
I am talking about the "Northman 40" a new design by Van de Stadt (2004).

The boats are completely diferent. The Norman plans cost 2440 euros.

http://www.stadtdesign.com/products/vds418424.htm

http://www.yacht-design.nl/satellite...orthman40.html

[D'ARTOIS]

Paulo, the Northman is not from the board of Van de Stadt but from Satellite Yacht Design, a new designer that became only known last year.

Please note that VdS and Satellite are located in the same area but are not affiliated. Therefore this confusion.

The concept looks good, but the designer is not known very well - however that does not implicate that the design wouldn't be up to measure.

[Vega]

Brien,

"Satellite Yacht Design, (is) a design office for high performance cruising yachts (and) was founded in 1996 by Kees van de Stadt. All designs are created in accordance with the architect's specific design philosophy."

http://www.yacht-design.nl/satellite/profile/index.html

When I asked "Satellite Yacht Designs" for a price, the answer came directly from Kees Van de Stadt. So I suspect that if he is not the designer he is the man in charge.Take a look at the number and quality of the new designs:

http://www.yacht-design.nl/satellite/designs/index.html

These don't look like the work of an unknown designer.

[sharpii2]

Originally Posted by Packeteer

ok, can we all agree on a design size?
how about 15 m in length and 4m beam?

individuals can stretch/shrink as desired

whats everybody think?

A little big for my tastes, but why not?

From the those dimensions, I can extrapolate a draft of 2 to 2.25m, a WL of 12 to 14m, a SA of 80 to 100sm, and displacement of 16 to 20mt with about 1/3rd being boat, 1/3rd being ballast and about 1/3rd being payload.

For auxillary, she will need anywhere from 36 to 100hp. The lower number is for powering through calms and the higher number for powering through gales.

If it were to be my boat, I'd pick the longer WL, Split the difference with the displacement, pick the smaller sail area, and pick the smaller engine as well (with big tanks). The strategy here would be to end up with a rig that is reasonably easy to tend (no sail larger than 40sm) and an engine that can stand to be idled along at about 1hp/ton without suffering damage. This, I hope would give me the capability to make timely passages in light winds (handy for chartering) and sail reasonably fast in heavier winds.

As for hull, I would go with a deep 'V' in order to get some of the more heavy items I would carry to add to the boat's stability rather subtract from it. The keel would be long or longish and flat on the bottom, so the boat, with some sort of props, would be able to stand on it. The hull, no matter what it ended up being made of (probably steel), would be a single or double chine.

As for rig, I might go for a gaff/marconi ketch, with the gaff in the middle and the somewhat taller but smaller marconi in the rear. With a transom sterned boat, I would get good staying geometry with this rig and no really rediculously tall masts (I'm afraid of heights). With a double ender, though, I would go with a cutter.

In short, I'd end up with a slow, slow turning, and (relatively speaking) unweatherly pig of a boat. A boat that would be as welcome in your average 'yacht yard' as a panzer tank is in your average BMW lot.

Bob

[yipster]

well the tread is not under sailboats, so i imagine a cat / tri motor sailer as ideal passagemaker

[sharpii2]

Originally Posted by yipster

well the tread is not under sailboats, so i imagine a cat / tri motor sailer as ideal passagemaker

I imagine so. It's about time some multi people join this discussion.

Do you have any particulars in mind? Length? displacement? Beam? Sail area? Horsepower?

There are some things a multi can do that a mono would have a hard time with.

And I don't mean just sail fast. On one thread, a guy wanted to take his Harley motorcycle with him on a South Pacific voyage. Getting the 1,000 pound bike out of the hold an onto a dock proved interesting. Using a reenforced boom to swing it over the side would cause a lot of listing on a mono 45 footer. A forty ft cat, on the other hand may be able to do the job easily.

Just one example.

Bob

[stewi]

German Pieske on Shangri La and French Antoine on Banana Split favoring the cat as well for long voyaging.
http://www.routard.com/mag_invite/id_inv/72.htm
Reported cons are:
Jerky motion on a cat,
limited payload,
cost or rejection in marinas.
I find some additional disadvantages, that the cats keep on sailing even at anchor or lying a hull
Also, I have to talk myself out of a multi-hull as a backyard home-built project, while not living close enough to the sea.

[stewi]

For cat lovers: I met this elderly couple preparing their cat for long time cruise.

[masrapido]

Just went through this thread from the start and was thinking what happened to my initial suggestion? Futuristic kind of sailing boat.

As someone said, going with this pace, we'll end up wit a slow pig of a boat. Not my cup of tea. I like them fast. I like them mas rapidos...

[D'ARTOIS]

Vega: Kees Van de Sadt has the same name but no connection to the Van de Stadt Naval Architects. They have separate companies. In that part of Holland, de zaanstreek, the name van de Stadt is not uncommon.

The man who gave the name Van de Stadt to the company was the naval architect Ricus Van de Stadt, who desined a host of yachts, among them the famous "Stormvogel" that belonged to Industrial Cees Bruynzeel, the woodbaron.

Masrapido: As I said, the futuristic issue is of course a chellange, but no superman's spaceships please.

[stewi]

I came in late in this discussion and missed the first posting. The thread starts with D’Artois response to Masrapido.
I think if we could have a poll as it has been done for that powerboat cruiser, than at least we sorted our opinions.
We’ll find that there are as many looking for a heavy displacement long-keel boat, than fast cruiser with moderate displacement or multi-hulls. It may be related to different lifestyles and active and passive safety.
I’ve gone through the bad experience of a heavy, slow boat and will favor a fast boat for the future. To my opinion, you can go slower if you feel you are loosing control over the boat while surfing, but it is impossible to go faster with a long keel boat than the boat length allow.
Capsizing a heavy displacement boat happened to Moitissier in his Joshua as well as McArthur in her racer with canting keel. Of course a cruiser should have righting capabilities, even when it means to float tanks or cant keels. The system has to work and it has to be reliable; my life depends on it.
Complication is also a personal matter. I’m an engineer and like to tinker with machines, wood and electronics. While cruising I enjoy to “play” with the sails and get the thrill out of the boat speed. I wished, we could have more masts and sails to set in light winds. In storms, I wished a single mast would be only 4-5 meters tall. While telescoping masts are a bit un-realistic, a fast boat, which can slow down if needed isn’t.

[yipster]

Originally Posted by sharpii2

a guy wanted to take his Harley motorcycle with him on a South Pacific voyage. Getting the 1,000 pound bike out of the hold an onto a dock proved interesting. Using a reenforced boom to swing it over the side would cause a lot of listing on a mono 45 footer. A forty ft cat, on the other hand may be able to do the job easily.

just what i recently proposed to jonathan for a mini car, a cat can but a car wont fit easely on a mono,
voyaging you do need landtransport, but he was thinking ramps on a solar cells boat wich is another good thought for a cat.
size a cat must have and the more the better, i'll read Leo Lazoukas works on multihulls again
and i'm going to see what motorsailers i find, supercats and tri's included

[stewi]

I could not find anything from Leo Lazoukas on the internet. Even my favorite catamaran web-site http://www.multihull.de/index.htm did not mention his name. Help me to learn more.

[yipster]

oops, misspelled the name of my spiritual guide Leo Lazouskas http://www.cyberiad.net/multihulls.htm

and here some good multihull reading

[stewi]

I fear your spiritual guide rather promotes mono-hulls than multi-hulls. See this in his conclusions:

“Optimum (long) monohulls are always better than optimum catamarans or trimarans of the same total displacement, from the point of view of total calm-water drag alone, unless there are restrictions on the ship geometry”.

The hull shapes Lazouskas describes are varied in length and width in order to find a mathematical optimal distance of the hulls at given speed.
The two hulls of a catamaran create a wave between the hulls, which besides the larger surface resistance also increase the wave resistance.
All hull shapes have a certain optimal length to width ratio, which can be explained with the fact, that with increasing width the waves are not only pushed sideways but downwards.

A much more simplified explanation of the Froude number I found in other books:
If a boat is dragged through the water it will form waves along the hull. With increased speed the number of waves along the hull are getting smaller. At maximum speed there is only one wave starting at the bow and ending at the stern. At this point there is a large wave resistant if the speed is further increased.

However, the Froude numbers only apply to hull shapes which displace the waves and not shapes which can surf the waves. Otherwise a windsurfer could only sail at ~ 1 knot.

Mono-hulls can surf, if the hull shape is flat.
If this is a feasible hull shape for a long distance cruising boat is not yet proven.

Catamarans and Trimarans usually surf the waves, if they are not too heavy and if the hull shapes allow surfing.