The Ideal Cruiser - a long range passagemaker

Discussion in 'Projects & Proposals' started by D'ARTOIS, Sep 9, 2005.

  1. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Depends on where I'm sailing. If I'm sailing mostly down wind, I'd pick the schooner. A gaff schooner can have an awfull lot of sail on short spars. And as long as I'm only occasionally tacking, the lesser windward prformance would hardly be noticed.

    A sloop at that size, 15m, would, for me, be out of the question. Unless it was a rigid fractional type that could ballance under just the reefed main alone. The jib on the masthead type is often bigger than the main and you have to be at the very bow to douse it, once the roller furl jamns.

    A masthead cutter or ketch seems to be the best all around comromise. I would want the ketch to ballance properly with only the main set and the cutter to ballance with only the inner staysail set. That way, I hope, I can plod along in filthy weather with my last propelling sail reasonably easy to get to.

    I know this may sound boring. I grew up hating masthead types because that's all I ever saw. Then I learned some engineering ;) It is the rig most likely to take a licking and keep on ticking. I would rather add and subtract smaller sails than change larger ones. My laziness again.

    A chineese lug schooner looks pretty good too, especially after dozens of reefings, shake outs and head sail changes. It may not be the first accross the bay, but it may very well be the first to reach harbor.

    Bob
     
  2. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Yes this is a good question.

    How about setting a limit? What would you say if the limit was set on 350 000 euros, ready to sail, all taxes paid?

    I have been looking for a boat like the one that is the object of this thread and the problem is not to find one, but to find one that goes in that budget.
    Mostly the ones that go on that budget are 38 to 40 footers, anything suitable and bigger than that is very difficult to find (I am talking about new boats).
    In this size I find steel to be very heavy for a reasonable fast boat and If I could I would favour aluminium, but the ones I like are completly out of the budget, like this one by Van de Stadt.
    http://www.yacht-design.nl/satellite/designs/northman40.html
    Of course I also have found that custom built boats are a lot more expensive than standard manufactured boats. :rolleyes:
     
  3. D'ARTOIS
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    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    Vega, if you have $ 350,000.- to spend, you will certainly find the boat that you requires - the Van de Stadt Norman is a Caribbean with a doghouse, a very popular design as most of the bigger Van de Stadt designs are. Early this year I received an inquiry from somebody from Spain to offer him a Dutch design, preferrably a design from Dick Zaal (Atlantic) or a boat alike that one or a Madeira from Van de Stadt.
    In this particular case I could supply a "one-off" 14 mtr yacht, designed by Dick Zaal, aluminium build at the very best shipyard in Holland for exactly the same price as a production Beneteau. I.e. ALUMINIUM build!!

    There are a lot of misunderstandings in the buying of a yacht and if you carefully approach the buying of a yacht, you may save yourself a considerable lot of money.

    That's how we operate, givin the client an exact calculation of costs involved and to their surprise they see that they have a one off for literally the same amount as a production boat with lesser specifications.
     
  4. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    D'Artois, I hope you are right. but there are some contradictions here.

    I have wrote to Van de Stadt telling him that I love his boat (Northman 40) and asking him about the complete cost of building one.

    He told me that" The building rights, including the drawings cost €14.900,--. Dutch yards offers the Northman 40, build in aluminium for €320.000,-- excluding VAT".

    That means that the boat will cost without electronics something like 395 000 euros. Add the electronics and some personal options and that will go between 420 and 450 000 euros. This is about 3 times the price of a 40 ft Beneteau.

    And I am not amazed because I have also asked the price of the "Jachtwerf Atlantic 42" that as you know is also an aluminium boat designed by Dick Zaal and built as a small production boat. The price is 495 000 euros, including VAT but without electronics, delivery or extras.

    So, I really apreciate if you can shed some light on this matter.
     
  5. D'ARTOIS
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    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    Vega, there are no contradictions here. And I will show you that by mailing you
    a calculation that I made for this Spanish client and that still is workable.
    I have to make some comments on the VdS attitude that I cannot make public and that I will mail in private to you. I insure you that the Norman can be produced for around 300.000,-- euro including basic electronics. The Atlantic 42 is a very expensive boat that fetches high prices because it is popular. Form the same designer I have a superior design that costs much less because our calculations are based on real costs, not on shipyard's calculations.
    I 'll explain this in private to you.

    Kind Regards,
    Brien
     
  6. Seafarer24
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    Seafarer24 Sunset Chaser

    I must say that I've seen a few designs in this thread that I really, really like. I find it humorous that the bow is both the worst place to sleep and the worst place to store heavy objects, so it is always drawn out as a V-Berth yet used for storage.

    The ideal yacht for me already exists- the Searunner 37. To be certain, a modernized version would be greatly appreciated- but the original design is entirely adequate for my purposes.
     
  7. stewi
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    stewi Junior Member

    In general, metal yachts out of Netherlands may be a bit more expensive compared to French manufacturers.

    http://www.atlanticyachts.nl/
    http://www.alubat.com/english/bateaux.htm

    The basic question of an ideal cruising yacht should be priceless.
    If I can spend only $ 200,000 for a fully equipped yacht, I either have to build the boat myself or buy used from Ebay.
    Most of the long time cruising boats are indeed custom made or at least the interior had been changed from the classical arrangement to a more practical 2-3 people cruising arrangement. There is an entire French armada of custom build metal boats in the Mediterranean and French Carribean.
    The interior design should not hamper the idea of some brainstorming, how an ideal cruising boat should look like.
    I do agree on the non-sense V-Berth configuration.
    Personally, I prefer aluminum for steel as a boat building material. Sailing angle to windward may be somewhat related to that, at least to a heavy displacement long keel yacht.
    Overall length of 12-14 meters is agreeable, that is for my taste, after living some years on a 10 m boat.
    I’ve no experience with freestanding masts, yet I like the simplicity and would love to give it a try on my next boat.
    I’ve not decided on lifting or swing keel. I would try to talk the designer into a tandem, canting ballast keel. If canted to opposite sides, the boat may even stand on the hard.
     
  8. Wynand N
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    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    The rig; I'm a simple man, so the rig I prefer, hence my vote for a masthead sloop with double headsails. Aspect ratio a bit on the high side - double sweptback spreaders with outboard chainplates (its a cruiser heh)

    Mast deckstepped.
     
  9. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    I don´t think so. If you look for the same quality of the Atlantic 42, The French ones would be "Garcia" and "Alliage" and those cost about the same as dutch boats.
    For example an Alliage 41 costs without extras 356 000 euros and a Garcia 43 will go to 600 000 euros.
    Ovnis are not as expensive but it is a boat with chines and a poor interior. From the not so expensive I prefer the Allures 40 . It is a nice boat and costs "only" 260 000 euros, even if the boat needs a lot of "extras".
    For me the problem with all these French boats is that they all are "Deriveurs" and that means a lousy performance against the wind. They also have the ballast on the botom of the boat, not on the keel, and that means that they have a poor final stability that translates in a bad stix number. The Alliage 40 has a stix nº of only 32,4 and an AVS of 115. Not very reassuring for an oceangoing boat, in my opinion.

    http://www.allures-yachting.com/index3.htm

    http://www.alliage-yachts.com/

    http://www.garcia-bateaux.com/
     
  10. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    I have been a bit busy and remain so for the moment.

    I would like to add a few comments here. Many of them from experience, some as an engineer working in this field. I am sorry if this is a bit scattered, it’s my 5 minute contribution.

    There are a few design criteria here that really set the scene.

    What destinations? What cost? How many?

    How are you apportioning cost ? labor and materials? The labor component is significant, for the self builder too since they can work in the time saved in construction.

    I like heavy displacement, high comfort ratio, moderate overhangs, good sail performance in moderately light winds. Strong, easily built, easily repaired in remote locations. Fixed keel, simpler the better.

    I would suggest for a global passage maker.
    S.A.D. > 15 (light air)
    DL 300-350
    S.A.WettedSurfaceArea > 2
    Power(stability) to carry that canvas to windward.
    CP around 0.55-0.56
    Good Load immersion , many people have little idea just how much you end up with aboard.

    We should be talking waterline length for the size indication, long overhangs add deck-space but little extra usable interior space.

    Intended use stated as a cruiser. I would make 45 feet on the waterline as the absolute minimum for 4 adults for a long period. I think that crew are an essential part of passage making and that you will carry that crew for many months both in harbor and at sea.

    Keelform is best as a moderate to full keel with rudder supported off the keel in the prop wash. The draft can then be reduced to 7 feet on a 45’ LWL hull giving good stability (low tankage and ballast.) . A fixed 7 foot deep keel is a good compromise. I feel that movable keels add too much to maintenance and reliability for long-term cruisers.

    Most cruisers hang off their anchor when cruising and anchorages are the most rewarding destinations too. Marina’s should only be used for haulouts and fuel otherwise you will quickly become poor. The heavier bigger boat lies sufficiently comfortably at anchor to live aboard even in strong wind provided she is sheltered from the swell. She can happily carry the heavier more seaworthy dinghies and the lifting gear/davits to make boat handling easy.

    Living together demands privacy in port, separate cabins , private double berths for couples. Note that V berths are very good berths at sheltered anchor and make good sail storage shelves at sea. It is often observed that cruising couples opt early out of boats/cruises that do not offer them privacy.

    Cruising long term needs a boat with large storage.
    Good underwater collision response.
    Ability to weather Force 7-8 for 3 days in reasonable misery. (Rather than abject terror)

    Although they seem good I have never yet seen a yacht that was saved by a watertight collision bulkheads fwd. Has anyone else?

    Building cost
    Chine hulls are considerably easier and faster to build . Repair is easier, roll damping is increased and it is a more sensible way of using sheet material. Radiused chine can make the hull look like a round bilge but adds design constraints costs, time, and does little to reduce drag at the operating parameters, how important are the cosmetics ?

    Deck stepped masts just need to be stiffer this increases weight aloft, but if the stability allows then this can be an advantage with increased roll inertia. Mast lowering on a husky ketch is not a trivial affair. It is possible but now we add time and cost.

    I would consider a Ketch with at least a 20% (of total) mizzen area mandatory for good sail handling and one big ketch advantage is the Mizzen staysail.

    Cockpit should be well sheltered and easy access to winches. On a larger boat the mid cockpit frees up the aft for a very useful private cabin , gives the helm only one mast to peer around and reduces the size of the boat psychologically for the helmsman. A bigger boat can sacrifice part of her cockpit to a small wheelhouse containing radios nav etc .

    Hullform
    I think …
    Plumb bows are an advantage in a marina and with rating rules, but they are not so seakindly on a heavy hull, they do nort help hobby-horsing tendencies. If the design is heavy then you will have trouble adding the sail area without a bowsprit or lofty masts, between the two I prefer a bowsprit by far. These can be made removable but again this adds complexity. If you have a bowsprit a longer bow is the best way of support it and reducing its length..

    Note that there is good damping / lower accelerations inherent in a longer bow. Also a flatter stern BWL aft damps the pitching oscillations.

    Machinery
    Room for Genset, Watermaker, pumps in one engine room. With a workbench and vice closeby. I would never specify a V drive for a cruiser, access is too poor to vital high maintenance components.
    Want a Decent anchor winch eg Lofrans, capable of pulling the boat off of a grounding. Larger slower turning prop, driven by a diesel engine. Overkill in shafting, Soft mounted engine for noise reduction.

    On building cost
    When it comes to fitting the interior the 40 footer with everything the 50 footer has will be take much longer to build than the interior that is freed up ie the 50 footer with the same layout. The larger hull interior can lose a little space to ease of construction and in doing so will provide a lot of storage. The longer hull will be more easily driven , gives a more secure platform and can be easier to sail despite the increased sail area. It will give a better return for re-sale and cost very little more to build.

    The inexperienced home builder working mostly in ones and twos with volunteer labour can build a 55 foot chine hull in 4 months, the fitting out can be completed in another 12. Interior design is very important here. Steel needs a simple easily fixed/unfixed ceiling (lining) and lends itself well to a simpler coarser interior made pretty with trim. For example Stuffing lockers with hardwood trim and sliding doors rather than fitted drawers and cabinets.

    Rigging
    I prefer the durability of steel rigging (not stainless) If the mast is stiff enough , single spreaders, runners for heavy weather optional. Cutter rigged fore-triangle staysail on a boom self tacking. Outer jib on a furler.
     
  11. Packeteer
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    Packeteer Junior Member

    this may be true while at sea, but it is fine while in a calm anchorage

    when at sea it is best to have pipe cots/berths as aft as possible
     
  12. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    "I do agree on the non-sense V-Berth configuration."

    I have had the pleasure of visiting the Feng Shuey (a 55+ft Motor sailor) that had completed at least 2 circumnavigations , so far.I think it was from Bill Gardens board.

    The boat is a big heavy disp wood boat that could carry a huge load , and it was not bothered in the least by having a 6-71Detroit (3000lbs) and 2 generator sets in the first 14 ft of the boat.Along with mechanical windlass and huge storage.

    If you don't like the motion in a V berth , its OK the engine doesn't mind a bit.

    With lightweight diesels now producing 75 or so cont HP that weigh 1/5 of a Detroit , and bulbous bows common on boats , the idea of a fwd engine room seems a great problem solver.

    I would use a water tight bulkhead (with Rated WT door ) and have a head / shower behind to use the added distance and door to completly isolate the engine or gen set noise.

    Simple & cheap tube drive shafts (as used in a truck ) solve the long run to a conventional prop instalation.
    F-S used conventional high cost marine shafting , with thrust bearing .

    FAST FRED
     
  13. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    I have appreciated your post that has, in my opinion, a lot of good and sound advise but I would like to comment on what seems to me some disadvantages of that kind of boat, as the general Ideal cruiser.

    Most people that circumnavigate or that live and sail extensively are couples, and I guess that medium age is between 45 and 65.

    A boat like the one you describe needs (as you pointed out) a crew.
    For having in a boat like that "good sail performance in moderately light winds" you will need huge sails and that is not a good thing with only two people on board, being one of them a woman, that in many cases is not a very experienced sailor.

    A heavy boat needs also a big motor and a big motor means more expenses... the fuel price is already a problem and it is still going to increase , not to mention that a heavy boat will motor more time than a lighter boat.

    About staying in Marinas, you should have a very special wife, because mine, and generally all women, after some days in the sea will want to take a proper shower, eat at a good restaurant and go shopping and this means a Marina (and you will have two women on that boat).

    Prices for a 55ft on a Marina are high and a lot of them just don't have the space for a boat like that, not to mention that the maintenance of a 55ft boat is very expensive.

    Off course, the choice of the perfect bluewater cruiser is very subjective and personal. I have read last year about a couple that had circumnavigate in an (new) Etap 24, with their3 year old soon :rolleyes: . They had no problem at all.
    That seems quite crazy to me, but they had thought it was the right boat to do it, everything considered and certainly costs were part of that equation...
     
  14. Wynand N
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    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Blazing saddles, to think I gave a complete set of v/d Stadt 40 Carribean/Norman plans away to a friend for a book.... :cool:
     

  15. D'ARTOIS
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    D'ARTOIS Senior Member

    If we can choose for a rig type and a certain hull, we could discuss the issue more closely.
    Look, some years ago, I met Herman Janssen, a one time well known circumnavigator, a Dutch equivalent of Moitessier, with his old Van de Stadt Pioneer called "Sounion". A boat with a LOA of just 30' - so the length of a boat just doesn't matter if you are a good enough sailor.

    I am starting now to prepare my trip from Ventura to Bordeaux, about 7000 nm, that I shall do alone or maybe with somebody who wants to join me. If everything goes according to plan I'll leave Ventura in two months time or so.
    During this trip, I will obtain some experience that might change my idea's about yachts completely. I must confess, that I am not really looking forward of making this trip.
    I have to beat up all he way into the NW Passat and that would certainly not be a trip of sheer comfort.

    The Norman type of yacht, is a good example of a roomy 40' that has a doghouse and sufficient space to house a couple in reasonable comfort. However living on a boat for an extended period of time, 3-4 years means that very soon the boat becomes too little.
    Very often you see that people change boats during their voyage and each boat that replaces the older one is bigger in size.

    For a husband/wife/children situation, a length of min. 45'is required so that everybody on board can have some sort of privacy.
     
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