The Ideal Cruiser - a long range passagemaker

[Packeteer]

sounds like a good idea lazyjack

individuals can always change the final plan according to their needs

[D'ARTOIS]

So, we are back where I started: read my thread - 1st post.

[Vega]

Yes, back to the "affordable" issue.
Looks like people on this forum that are building boats or want to build one can not afford a 50'.

Go for a 45ft, 13T boat, max. 2m draft.

[stewi]

...or possibly a used boat from the Gulf Coast?
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/2789/mess4ey.jpg

[D'ARTOIS]

Stefan, what is this? Armageddon in Marinaland?

I heard this one lately:

WHY DO ALL HURRICANES CARRY THE NAME OF WOMEN?

A: when they come, they come wild and wet; when they leave you have lost your house, your boat and your car!


I better open up a repair yard in Florida!

[stewi]

These images of destruction change at least my perspective of cruising and cruising grounds.
I was hoping to stay North of Carolina in the summer time and Florida/Bermuda in the winter.
Now it looks like it will be already snowing when I can make my way South.
As an alternative, I could go further South in the Summer like Brazil or Chile and sail the Florida keys in the winter time.
However, these are quite a few more miles to go and than I would be sailing amid the drug fleet.
I would also have to fresh up on my Spanish.
I simply believe that the American east coast is not a good place to stay for live-a-boards.
See hurricane map of 2005:
http://www.wxforecasts.com/ameriwx/a...=NT&hwvmetric=
I may be better off going back to the Med. What are the docking prices in Turkey? Bodrum, Marmaris, Alanya?
Second, I wonder if I need all my stuff on a boat. If I have to leave my boat in a hurricane and run for my life, than I may loose my boat and home but not everything I have.
With this in mind, I can reduce the size of my ideal cruising boat to 13 m instead of 15 m and I may not need a retractable keel either.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by stewi

These images of destruction change at least my perspective of cruising and cruising grounds.
I may be better off going back to the Med. What are the docking prices in Turkey? Bodrum, Marmaris, Alanya?

With this in mind, I can reduce the size of my ideal cruising boat to 13 m instead of 15 m and I may not need a retractable keel either.

This year was the worst hurricane year (and it is not over) since there are recorded data (150 years). I think it has to do with Global Warming, and even if US changes their international politics on that matter, allowing a world wide control on emissions, it will take a long long time to reach equilibrium again (big inertia).

Things in the Med. even not as bad as in the Golf area, are also changing. This summer, in western med, lots of unusual things happened like hail fall, big tides and lots of tornados (I have been caught at night by one. It ripped off my main 3 reefed sail).

About prices I have them from Tunisia, Cap Monastir Marina:

13m boat: 1year 1530 D

Low season-moth 147 D 1Dinar = 0.75 US D.
http://www.marinamonastir.com/

[stewi]

I guess the cruising area is a bit off topic. Particular when D'Artois was asking for a long range passage maker. With my perspective cruising area the Med and ICW, I should be looking for another thread.
Nevertheless, even long time passage makers rest for a while at one place and it is certainly worth to know, how much money we'll spend in cost of living.
Your link pointed me to marinas.com and I selected Oriental in NC, which attracted already many long time cruisers in the past, for a price comparison:
http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/2485/marinas5oc.jpg

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Vega

I like this one, I mean the hull and the dog house, but I find the interior rather disappointing:

http://photobucket.com/albums/b152/v...urrent=327.gif

I will try to design a different interior...but it is going to take a long time. I have not much time available.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...54/cascorr.jpg


http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...54/convsrc.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1.../interior1.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1.../interior2.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...1954/corte.jpg


Yes it has taken a lot of time indeed.

In the end I have not only changed the interior but also redesigned the boat. It has more half a meter (13.8m), a lot more LWL and has lost a ton or so.

First let me say I like the koopmans classical look, but not so much the hull and the weight.

About the modifications on the koopmans boat:

Main reason is speed. I want a reasonably fast boat with good windward performance.
About speed, and utilizing Dave Gerr formulas for finding the hull speed and the difference of hull speed between the two boats is more than 2 knots (8,35 – 10,6).
About windward performance, in the original boat (draft 1,8m) the keel only measures 90cm. In the modified version (draft 2,1) the keel measures 130cm. I believe that it will make a difference on the windward performance.
About weight, being this keel longer and having a semi-torpedo on the end, it will be possible, for the same RM, to save some ballast weight. Probably it will be around one ton, possibly a little bit more. It all depends on the weight of the semi-torpedo. The boat will have less wetted surface and will be better in light winds.

About the interior, the front cabin is smaller, but the bed is bigger. Of course, the ideal would be to have more half a meter and then it would have space for two closets...but really it is not a big problem for me and then it would have more than 14 meters and would pay more at Marinas. Lots of storage in other places...and the boat is going to be used by two, almost all the time.
The Galley and the head are a lot bigger as well as the space in the doghouse. The boat offers two agreeable, visually and spatially interconnected living spaces, both spaces with views to the outside.
It has good access to the motor and good storage space, interior and exterior.
All the 50cms extra space was used in the exterior cockpit. It is larger, the seats are wide and long enough to lay outside (When the weather is alright I like to stand watch laying down in the outside, even take some small naps) and the helmsman has a lot more space to be comfortable at the steering.

What do you think of it?

[Packeteer]

nice design Vega

still a bit short for me tho

[Guillermo]

Nice looking boat, Vega. Congratulations.
Some doubts:
- I find it has a too small room around the engine, to my taste.
- I do not understand well the layout astern. It seems to be a couple of "lost" spaces (?)
- I favor a second inside full-view steering position, seeming not possible here.
- Genoa and cutter sail's stays fixings at the top of the mast, seem to bo not properly located.
- Maybe fix rigging is somewhat redundant?
- What are the intended motor and sailing performance?

A request: Could you please make the image in your message smaller? It makes the rest of messages too "wide" and uncomfortable to read. Thanks a lot in advance.

[mattotoole]

Originally Posted by stewi

I wonder, if the sloping leading edge works well as a ramp, lifting the hull high and dry.

Yup! I'd love to say I haven't, but I've done this a couple of times. It feels just like going over a big speed bump. Last time it happened there wasn't a scratch on the keel, so we figured it must have been a big submerged log.

If this is really about passagemaking -- face it -- at some point you're going to hit stuff. Whether it's rocks, logs, containers, fishing nets, whales, or just big seaweed, it must be considered.

[mattotoole]

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

"I do agree on the non-sense V-Berth configuration."

I have had the pleasure of visiting the Feng Shuey (a 55+ft Motor sailor) that had completed at least 2 circumnavigations , so far.I think it was from Bill Gardens board.

The boat is a big heavy disp wood boat that could carry a huge load , and it was not bothered in the least by having a 6-71Detroit (3000lbs) and 2 generator sets in the first 14 ft of the boat.Along with mechanical windlass and huge storage.

If you don't like the motion in a V berth , its OK the engine doesn't mind a bit.

With lightweight diesels now producing 75 or so cont HP that weigh 1/5 of a Detroit , and bulbous bows common on boats , the idea of a fwd engine room seems a great problem solver.

I would use a water tight bulkhead (with Rated WT door ) and have a head / shower behind to use the added distance and door to completly isolate the engine or gen set noise.

Simple & cheap tube drive shafts (as used in a truck ) solve the long run to a conventional prop instalation.
F-S used conventional high cost marine shafting , with thrust bearing .

FAST FRED

Interesting idea. Maybe it's worth looking into diesel-electric propulsion, where you can put the engine anywhere you want, boxed in for sound insulation, etc. I know it's another can of worms, but...

[FAST FRED]

Maybe it's worth looking into diesel-electric propulsion.

To be a versatile passagemaker it would be important to get proper loading on the diesel.

The ONLY way I know if doing this would be a std transmission out of a truck.

With an engine set up as the mfg propose the vessel is only suitable for one speed. About 80% of rated load at 90% of rated RPM, and the engine will be happy.

Serious cruisers are most interested in long range fuel economy , and by pulling back to the Torque peak (where most engines sip fuel) the amount of power avilable with stock mfg sugested prop is pittyfull , and may seriously shorten the engines service life from underloading.

The use of a multi speed transmission solves the problem completly, although with some complexity.

Most truch trannys are Cont rated for 500 or more HP , so operation for weeks on end will not be a problem.

OVERLOADING , by someone that doesnt understand the setup could be a problem , easily solved with a Pyromometer (and KNOWLEDGE0 of what its indicating) in the exhaust.

Of course a variable pitch prop wouls add a few more percent to the efficency , allowing tuning for head seas , or sail assist.

All V-P props require a thrust bearing , so there would be little extra hassle with a more distant engine location.

The best news is it will all continue to work,
AFTER the Lightning strike , something there is ZERO assurance of with electric motors generstors and controll boxes.

The hardest part of this instalation would be shaking loose a "fuel map" from the various engine mfg , so the optimum RPM for loads / fuel consumption could be planned.The std HP graph with "ideal" prop is useless for anything but FULL BORE operation.

FAST FRED

[marshmat]

Diesel-electric could well be a viable option. My understanding is that D-E is best when the hotel load (ie. the sum of everything electric except for the prop motor itself) is significant. I also like the idea of being able to run on battery only in no-engine zones. The big problem is the added complexity. The lightning issue Fred mentions could probably be resolved with some smart grounding, but it's definitely a concern (also with computer-controlled diesels, too).