Question about commercial speed boats

Private Message: Re: Composite technologies
Recipients: Vulkyn

Yesterday, 08:30 PM

Re: Composite technologies
I would very much appreciate when we open this discussion to the public!

First, the strength of the matrix is a bit better with Ep.

Next, you don´t need a gelcoat, but have to paint the boat to prevent it from UV rays!

You have no water in the laminate, even after decades. The ester resins suck water after a while. VE less so.

No blister (osmosis)

Much more forgiving mix ratios. One wrong batch of ester mix can ruin your entire layup, and it is VERY easy to get it wrong, even in a professional run yard.

Ep does not stink like hell, labourers like to work with Ep better.

Styrol causes cancer (Ep hardeners cause allergic reations), and can come out of the laminate for many years. Many mass production boats stink from styro fumes even after ten years (not healthy)
Cured Ep is completely inert and can never gas out! It is even approved for food processing- storage.

There are more points,

as a Newcomer you have to provide more for the same money than others, Epoxy is such way. The sales and resales value of a Ep boat is far, far higher than ester boats (no matter poly or VE, the customer does not know the difference, it ends: ester.)

Engine beds and stringers in wood are good when laminated and encapsulated. Just a log thrown in (as it always is done) is crap. But sloppy done "hat" caps in resin are not better!

One of the secrets here is, that you MUST avoid that anyone is drilling a hole in it, be it the yard or the owner. Therefore one has to provide every possible addition to the equipment with a prefabricated mount point. (in both cases, wooden laminate and GRP)

Never use core foam!
Never use cores below waterline!
See David Pascoe (and me) on that topic.

Regards
Richard

That would imply you have never seen a well executed Wood Epoxy vessel! I don´t believe you meant that.

Laminated and completely encapsulated (of course in Epoxy) engine beds, girders, stringers are a proven way to execute that. Though there is a weight penalty, a water saturated foam is as heavy and provides zero strength.

Not knowing in which part of the industry you ever dabbled, I dare to say, obviously not in the higher quality region.

And you owe us a answer:

Polyester with carbon?

 

Can the paint be applied in the mold like gelcoat is, or does the boat need to be painted later?

 

Needs to be painted after release. That is a real disadvantage of Ep, fortunately the only one.

edited:
We are actually in transition from VE to all EP on our 35 - 42 meter range and are playing with a UV resistant outer layer. But thats future.

Regards
Richard

 

You can gelcoat the mold and then layup epoxy there have been and are several manufactureres doing it now. There is a technique to it.
All Mum/Farr30's and Farr40's and AHPC F16 Viper are boats I have sailed/worked on built like this,

There is also one company doing epoxy based gelcoats now..not sure how successful they are

 

More than one.

Gurit is the only name which I recall now, but we are testing several products.

But as always in our business, before you have not built a boat with it, you just guess.

Regards
Richard

 

yes Apex
Done right it works, done poorly it fails and its a ******* to repair as you are now trying to bond in reverse order which does not work
All the foils on the racing beach cats are also done like this due to them using the high pressure epoxy foam.
Painting after is going to cost more

 

For that reason we will paint instead of taking a risk. Except there is a thoroughly tested UV resistant outer layer available before we lay up the first new one. (but that will not happen before end of 2012)

 

What surprises me is West system say their epoxy does not need a uv protective layer.

Changing to epoxy is gona be harder than i thought as the main stream idea is that polyster is doing the job why change?

 

Your West supplier is a proven *******, and wrong as usual. All Epoxy resins, except some rare special formulations, need a well applied UV protection. In fact polyester and Vinylester deteriorate under UV as well, just slower.

The main stream is as dumb as your West supplier. Polyester is NOT doing the job and never did.
It is in fact not even a proper boat building material as all the industry meanwhile has noticed.

Read Pacoe on the blister issue (it leads to other conclusions too), and you will understand why that stuff is just sufficient, but not good by any means except cost.
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm

not the bible, but opens the eyes of the dumb followers of some sales drivel.


From a competely different point of view:

You will hardly have any chance on the market when you don´t provide a product with outstandind quality from keel upwards.
Cheap is not the bringer, and as a newcomer you will never compete with the efficiency of the industrial mass product lines.

Regards
Richard

 

Yah i agree hence my statement ..... I already get some epoxy for trials and the next step is building using epoxy rather than polyster (both fiberglass boats and strip planking)

Would it be of any use to use vinlyster as a stepping stone to epoxy or would that be pointless? Just migrate to epoxy ?

 

The difference between VE and Ep, though noticeable, is not big enough to do so.
I regret that we went for VE when we decided to produce our larger range (from about 32 to 42 meter) in GRP instead of wood Epoxy. It would have been better to go straight for Ep. We will correct that in the next generation of boats.
That does not prove anything I know, but it might make you think about it.

Regards
Richard

 

After a few emails back and forth the local boat builders have refused to use vinyl ester since their polyster has been triad and tested many times.

In order to use vinyl ester i have to bring in my own design and mold.

 

Poly ester or vinylester make no differance ! Just vinylester is a better quality resin and much stronger that poly !use the same gel coat at it releases just the same as poly boats . In Korea poly and vinyl are the same price so always use vinlyester because its a better resin .

 

re: painting new epoxy hulls.

How much prep is involved? Do you have to sand the whole thing to get the paint to stick to the cured epoxy?

 

Emmmm huh ?? hence i want to use vinylester !