Pirate Mercs

Like it or not, this is a legitimate thread and I thank God that there are brave men who put their lives on the line so that we can sleep at night, so that YOU can have the freedom to disagree.
We have just had a guest insulted and perhaps embarrassed but we should be the ones in shame for showing ANYTHING but love and appreciation for what these people do. I know where these brave men can get a captain and I've always thought that a shot never need be fired with a show of force - if I am lucky enough to be able to assist, and the situation arises, I will do it for YOU when I squeeze one off.


Here, this will make even a Buddhist monk feel better about these cockroaches; According to the Dalai Lama, “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” (Seattle Times, May 15, 2001). (“Dalai” means “oceanwide” and that makes this applicable).

[ancient kayaker]

Agree, piracy is wrong, these are lawless waters off a lawless coast. If someone's willing to do a dirty job that needs to be done good for him, I say. He's come to us for help not for judgement.

However, this is not a gun forum, it's a boat forum. lots of people here who can offer advice based on knowledge of the area, the weather and sea states, and boat design and use. That's the area where these guys need help.

It's a pity the gun issue was raised in the first place. Let's forget all that and get on with telling them what they need to know about the boat.

Once the pirates are chased back to the land, the work on their hearts and minds can begin.

I concur with AK and have some ideas about how to work on their hearts and minds...
What it (IT) all boils down to is this way of thinking; "the why of piracy". It started in the sixties, nay, it started with Charles Darwin...but it really started with President Johnson in the sixties, where a child rapist or a serial killer was deemed a product of society. We started having empathetic judges decide cases, rather than judges who are actually understanding the rule of law and the Constitution. We don’t need some judge sitting up there feeling bad for Jeffrey Dahmer because of his life circumstance and short changing our opportunity to get fair treatment under the law. These people forgot what a Supreme Court Justice's job was and started melding words like "empathy" and phrases like "product of society" into our laws. Starting then, it was our fault. Instead of dispatching these genetic mistakes, these makers of wrong, easy decisions, we want to cure them.
It's the same people that bleat about overpopulation that have a problem with taking a few of the worst examples out. Impossible for reason to jibe with liberalism. Absolutely impossible. Can we get back to shepparding?

[powerabout]

you might want ot check on the rules for the vessels flag state to know what you can and cant do re pirates
I would have thought a successful mission would be a vessel escourted without a shot fired and no pirates.
I'm sure they will do like common theives, take the easiest not the hardest target

[Marco1]

Originally Posted by Groundpounder

There were a number of questions raised and I will endeavor to answer them. We have researched this and determined that it can be done legally. The reasons for doing this are simple. One: the think this kind of stuff is fun; you have to be a little twisted to want to serve on the tip of the spear. Two: I suspect we could make a lot of money. Three: someone has to do it. Armament would consist of two .50 calibers in dual configuration on the bow and probably one on each corner on the stern. We would also want a belt fed 7.62x51 for each of the rest of us; not to mention a handful of assault rifles or shotguns for the possibility that we captured prisoners. The M134 minigun is not a possibility due to the extreme coast of purchasing the weapon as well as the difficulty of making port with it. It is much more practicable to arm the boat with M60/M240 machine guns. This is subject to change depending on the configuration of the boat that we eventual buy. I would think that hitting something off of a boat will not be too different then hitting something off of the back of a Humvee with a 50 cal on a dirt road while moving at 45 mph. Several of our guys have trained on ship to ship combat with belt fed weapons. We will probably be operating out of Djibouti.
The boat I am looking at is this. http://commercial.apolloduck.com/fea...html?id=108835
Please keep in mind that none of us have much experience with boats and I have none. Boston suggested that I ask you my questions. The first is what is the range of this boat? Is it fast enough to engage the pirates for a short time and then make it back to whatever we are escorting. One of our guys is a combat veteran who also is a master mechanic and rebuilds engines for Caterpillar. Is he going to be able to handle our mechanical issues as they arise. What is the cost going to be to maintain this craft? Also, would it be possible to have one of the ships we are escorting refuel us as part of the contract? Will these engines run on their fuel? None of us have any sort of a nautical license. What do we need? If we need to do some schooling, the new GI bill will pay for it. Would it be better to hire a captain? Thank you for your input on these issues.

Hi Groundpounder and welcome to the board.
I am sorry about the reaction of one of the members so far. Expect a few more. I suggest you just ignore all of it and I am sure you are no stranger to controversy. This falls under the same category of saying killing the cow is wrong yet eating the stake and wearing the shoes is OK. Again just ignore the bull and take home the information you need.

I am glad one of the link I posted was useful to find the ship you need. I must say that I would go with you guys if it wasn't for some other unavoidable prior commitments. . I have been following the piracy in Somalia for years and have been twisting my hands every time thinking why on earth are they tolerating this bastards who send their money to Alkaida? Why not just sink the lot systematically? I am really happy that something is starting to happen.
I am sure you know the ship escort services are already been offered. I posted a link to one of them. It is always important to know what is on offer and how much they charge and how they operate.

As for your choice of boat, all I can say is that Germans and dutch build the best steel ships ever. You got two 1000 HP engines, that should speed things along. The more experienced here will be able to tell you the hull speed according to length and weight.
You Cat mechanic should be able to work on the MTU however once at sea it is more the experience in preventing problems than fixing them that counts. Acquiring some marine engine experience will be very useful.
Your engines look in good nick from what can be said from two photos. If they are in good shape they should burn about 170 gram of diesel fuel per HP per hour. If you cruise along at half speed then it is 1000x170=170,000gr/850gr= 200 litres per hour or 50 gallons per hour. If you go full blast it is twice as much if you go slower less, that soul give you a rough figure. I am sure others will correct me if I am wrong.

I would think that if you can go into a course and get your seaman legs, I wouldn't blame you. As for hiring a captain...If you can find one and it fits in the budget, it is not a bad idea, just don't sing any long contracts and review it as you go one trip at the time. The more experience you gain the more independent you can become. If your business is successful, you will then need to delegate others to man other boats.

I can not say much about your choice of guns, since you must know more than me. All I know as a hunter is that the cost of ammo is usually not the problem rather the availability and you can not go past the 7,62. Cheep as chips and available anywhere. Would the .50 outreach the RPG? If not Steyr makes a nice .50BMG sniper gun for long pot shots.

All the best and keep asking questions I like your choice of boat, just make sure it is still available and don't forget to bargain and bargain some more, those things are hard to sell.

[powerabout]

re illegal activity
except for yachts I would have thought most development in powerboats was either from the navy or drug runners or smugglers

[Boston]

you mean like the guy with the concrete submarine out of Columbia
great plan eh

I think that thing will do about 37 knots or thereabouts at full throttle

holds 8000 liters and burns 200 pr hour at half speed so that ends up being 40 hours of cruse time at half throttle
not to good for a boat that needs to go at least a week
they will have to add fuel storage and find a way to reduce consumption although one of the big questions is can they write it into the contract to be refueled from the boat they are escorting and whats all involved in that procedure

although speed in a boat is a function of resistance so half power will yield better than half full speed
my bet is something like 3/5 of full speed
or about 23~24 knots in this case
which I think is just about right to keep pace with a tanker or container ship

cruse speed is likely less than half throttle and more like 1/4 or even less

[powerabout]

why does the navy have fast boats?
to catch the crims in their fast boats
the whole fast boat/engine business in Florida is what it is today due to drug running and then the government needed boats to chase them and so on.
Cats were perfect as you could drop your booty in the tunnel if being chased
I'm sure Jack Kennedy had the fastest boats he could get running alcohol to the US

[Groundpounder]

Our intention is not to kill pirates, but to protect the ships traveling through a vary dangerous part of the world. Please keep in mind that these criminals have promised to kill American prisoners after the SEALs killed three pirates who were holding an American captain hostage. We are not mercenaries, for mercenaries are men who fight for a foreign power against another foreign power. We are armed security guards. From an ethical viewpoint I see myself on the same level as a brinks security guard or a guy riding shotgun on an old western stage coach. I brought up the question of armament because so many others had posted questions on the subject and as I would like my questions answered about boats, it is only fair to answer others questions about guns. By the way, there were several pages of posts about guns and nobody complained until now.
So how does one keep pirates away from a large vessel with out killing them? Now this is a question I can't answer with out going into detail about armament. The pirates most destructive weapon is the RPG-7 which self detonates at 920 meters. RPG's are not cheap and I wouldn't expect the pirates to have a lot of experience firing the thing; they mostly use them to intimidate shipping captains into stopping their ship. It is very difficult to hit a tank at more then 300 meters on land and that is pushing it. Also it is a one shot weapon. The M2 machine guns that I will use have an effective range of 1800 meters and can fire tracer rounds which is an important part of this scenario. 50 cal tracer rounds are very visible to the naked eye and at night it is like laser fire. Our principal advantage is to detect them before they get close. One important question is how far out could you see a skiff coming at you on open water? I would expect that firing several bursts across their path at extremely long range would convince them to go elsewhere. I know some of you find the discussion distasteful and I understand your disdain. I will try to keep the rest of my writings to a nautical nature. If you want to discuss the nautical parts of this post I would find that helpful.
Assuming Boston and Marco1 are correct at half speed I should expect about 41.5 hours of power from the engine. How much range would that give us? I have emailed the sellers to get the exact engine specifications although I haven't received an answer at this time. The question is how fast do the ships go through this area, and how far are we going to be able to keep up with them for? What kind of weather should we be prepared for in this part of the world and will a ship of this class handle it? How many people are needed to crew a boat of this size? In an engagement every person on board would be on a gun with the exception of the one behind the tiller. When not engaged I figured we would need a mechanic and a cook. The rest of the crew would be watching the horizon in shifts. Night vision goggles would be used at night. I figured eight people aboard would be about right. Soldiers are used to uncomfortable living conditions for extended periods of time and this boat is cake compared with some things I have had to deal with. I noticed the boat I posted on has 16 bunks; could we put bigger fuel tanks on board and how would that effect the ship? In my link a diagram of the boat was posted; where would you guys put the tanks? How difficult are they to install. I can MIG, TIG , Oxy-acetylene and GMAW wield any kind of steel or aluminum in question; will I be able to install the tanks myself? Will the larger ships we are escorting be able to refuel us? Can our diesels use their fuel? Does anyone have an idea what is costs to maintain a boat of this class per day of use? How far away could you see a small boat coming at you? Thank you for the help on this matter.

[Marco1]

Originally Posted by Boston

holds 8000 liters and burns 200 pr hour at half speed so that ends up being 40 hours of cruse time at half throttle
not to good for a boat that needs to go at least a week
they will have to add fuel storage and find a way to reduce consumption although one of the big questions is can they write it into the contract to be refueled from the boat they are escorting and whats all involved in that procedure

although speed in a boat is a function of resistance so half power will yield better than half full speed
my bet is something like 3/5 of full speed
or about 23~24 knots in this case
which I think is just about right to keep pace with a tanker or container ship

cruse speed is likely less than half throttle and more like 1/4 or even less

If that's the case they may burn 100 litres an hour, sounds better already. I hope it is propped correctly... I would hate to pay for a new prop that size x 2!

As for refuelling, I wonder if the MTU 12V will burn the bunker stuff the container ship burns. Probably not and they either need to buy a centrifuge to clean the bunker fuel or load diesel fuel in the tanker. May be the tanker has a good storage of diesel for their gensets?
How do you refuel at sea is another question. I am sure the navy does it, but if a bulk carrier can do?

I noticed your friend did not mention to take with them a fast smaller boat to deploy in case it's needed.

[susho]

The new dutch patrol ships aren't designed to go fast, more as a mothership for the helicopter and fast rhibs. This is cheaper and more effective for counterdrugs ops, and SAR.
you could buy an old fisheryvessel and do the same, use it as a mothership, and use smaller cheaper fast boats to move around. Fisheryvessels are very cheap here at this moment. The on on the link is located in holland also btw

[Marco1]

could we put bigger fuel tanks on board and how would that effect the ship? In my link a diagram of the boat was posted; where would you guys put the tanks? How difficult are they to install. I can MIG, TIG , Oxy-acetylene and GMAW wield any kind of steel or aluminum in question; will I be able to install the tanks myself? Will the larger ships we are escorting be able to refuel us? Can our diesels use their fuel? Does anyone have an idea what is costs to maintain a boat of this class per day of use? How far away could you see a small boat coming at you? Thank you for the help on this matter.

Groundpowder, installing extra fuel tanks is always possible, the cost of the tanks and installation is another matter. Of course you could do it if you had a crane to get the tank in the ship and good advise as where to place it. You are talking to add 4-5 tonn container anchored securely so that it does not come loose in hig sea. It must be done properly.
If it was me, I would first try to get a few quotes from the shipyard in the netherlands. They are bound to be expensive, but worth the try since they are right there.
Second port of call is this guy Kaya Cakar, owner of Asboat Yacht Building, in Izmir Turkey. They are very accomodating know a lot about steel building and could do the job blindfolded.
I don't know about costs for this type of ship, may be some of the otehrs can give you an idea, if not ask the same question in the trawler forum, http://www.trawlerforum.com those are guys that had 40 50 foot trawlers for decades and can give you practical advise and do not kringe at the metion of a sling shot.
As for how far can you see an inflatable coming at you, that is a military question. In daylight and good binoculars, I would guess 2000 meters is not impossible, at night time 10 meters if you are lucky and it is very dark. I would expect those thing to show up on a radar and radars are cheap this days.

Just an idea taken from those idiots chasing the Japanese in the Antartic, you could carry steel cable on floaters to trow at the boats and foul their props.

Tankers aren't as fast, but containerships haul. You need to keep up with them. 27 kts. They will not want to stop to fuel you - time is money. You are going to have to get it from small trampers or in port or, with a good enough relationship, a navy.
Add the observer's altitude to the altitude of the attacker, say, a total of 15 ft. Geometry allows you to see him almost five miles - after that, he's over the horizon. With choppy water or poor light, less, but choppy water in certain light, more, because of the spray he throws. As long as he gets the message before 400 meters, I would think. You don't need steel cable, Marco. Black poly (it floats) is killer and you can't see it well. Scraps of black net will take a long time to cut out. If it is Spectra netting, they will need serrated knives and more time. On second thot, some fine wire in there would shut them down completely!
"Just an idea taken from those idiots chasing the Japanese in the Antartic" - That's my favorite show!
G'night

[powerabout]

you cant put plastic in the water..
thats illegal!
unless you want to go and get it back??

[dskira]

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

Agree, piracy is wrong, these are lawless waters off a lawless coast. If someone's willing to do a dirty job that needs to be done good for him, I say. He's come to us for help not for judgement.

However, this is not a gun forum, it's a boat forum. lots of people here who can offer advice based on knowledge of the area, the weather and sea states, and boat design and use. That's the area where these guys need help.

It's a pity the gun issue was raised in the first place. Let's forget all that and get on with telling them what they need to know about the boat.

Once the pirates are chased back to the land, the work on their hearts and minds can begin.

This is a saine thought, a human thought. Not a gun crazy going on pirate rampage extermination.
If you want that go to an other forum please. This is not the place.
Cheers
Daniel