Pirate Mercs

Politics. Damnit.

[Dave Gudeman]

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

Can't help wondering if a significant portion of the money now being spent on naval escorts, skyhigh insurance rates and ransoms couldn't be better spent trying to deal with the poverty that gives rise to such desperation, and the international politics that gives rise to such poverty. Of course, dealing with the religious issues that gave rise to the international politics in the first place is likely to be a sticking point ...

Kayaker, it isn't poverty that gives rise to crime; rather it is crime that gives rise to poverty. You take any group of people living in poverty and get them to respect property rights, to be honest in their business dealings, and to reject governmental corruption, and they will not be poor for very long. On the other hand, you take a group of middle-class people who don't behave like that and they will soon descend into poverty. History has shown this many times.

The civilized world has given billions to Africa and it has done nothing to relieve their poverty. In fact, their poverty as gotten worse as one despot after another robs and rapes their countries. These are African despots, by the way, and they are acting well within the typical norms of African leaders dating back as far as African history goes.

A lot of people living in Western society have picked up the curious notion that the high standards of living and relatively low levels of corruption, robbery, rape, slavery, murder, and tribal feuding that exists in the West is the norm, and that the high levels of these things in other places is something unusual that we have to find an explanation for. The opposite is true. All of those evils have been the norm in human society as far back as we have history. It is Western culture that is historically unusual. It is the relative lack of these things in Western culture that is in need of explanation.

Hey, how's that sailing-upwind thing going?

[Marco1]

I agree with Dave G. It is the individual who produces the culture that produces the religion that produces the dictator who will rape and pillage the country from the inside with of course the help of whoever else wants to help himself to the spoils.
To attempt to reverse the cycle is a very stupid move. Iraq with Sadam Hussain would have been a much better country today.

Each country has the government it deserves.

[Dave Gudeman]

Originally Posted by Marco1

I agree with Dave G. It is the individual who produces the culture that produces the religion that produces the dictator who will rape and pillage the country from the inside with of course the help of whoever else wants to help himself to the spoils.
To attempt to reverse the cycle is a very stupid move. Iraq with Sadam Hussain would have been a much better country today.

Er. I'm not sure if you really think you agree with me or if you are being sarcastic. I wasn't saying that they deserve what they get or that we have no moral obligation to help them if we can. The large majority of the people in those societies are innocent victims of the thugs. What I was reacting to the statement that their problems are caused by poverty and to the implication that the solution is to give them money. I think both ideas are serious mistakes, well-meaning mistakes but mistakes nonetheless, that make the problems worse. But ... this is already off-topic so I don't intend to discuss what I think the right solution is, because that will really cause an off-topic controversy.

[Marco1]

Originally Posted by Dave Gudeman

Er. I'm not sure if you really think you agree with me or if you are being sarcastic. I wasn't saying that they deserve what they get or that we have no moral obligation to help them if we can. The large majority of the people in those societies are innocent victims of the thugs. What I was reacting to the statement that their problems are caused by poverty and to the implication that the solution is to give them money. I think both ideas are serious mistakes, well-meaning mistakes but mistakes nonetheless, that make the problems worse. But ... this is already off-topic so I don't intend to discuss what I think the right solution is, because that will really cause an off-topic controversy.

Yes, I agree with that too, I don't want to elaborate too much but I believe that just like a person is the maker of his destiny communities are the makers of their history and present time situation. To try to find responsibility outside the country looking at selected historical factors, is not right. Each country is responsible for their trajectory up or down.
To state today that one person is a victim because his neighbour hacked his family to death is a feel good statement. Ignoring that this family may have hacked to death the neighbours for centuries before and at this point in history is on the loosing side is a consideration that can not be ignored.
The question what are we supposed to do is what entertains and makes rich a lot of people. I think that we should do the least possible and punish severely those who interfere and make money out of their misery.

And as for the cause of piratery in Somalia the answer is easy. Somalia is a Muslim country and a lot of the money robbed goes to Alcaida

[powerabout]

Hi Boston
Well put as always..
I used to eat in the same restuarant as some of the the Mozambique embassy staff in London ( when I lived there 2 years ago) and they couldn't stop telling me how good it is now.
They are one of the lucky ones whereby they solved their internal problem not just had a cease fire so the country is safe and on the up and up now,hard to believe but the internatioanl flights to it are ever increasing.
Cheers

[powerabout]

I was sitting on a plane in Zimbabwe years ago beside a pastor, we got chatting about Africa and so on ( Zim has a 2 tribe problems like other countries) and he said to me 'Oh it will take another 100+ years to get the tribal problem sorted out and Africa to get moving'
And they all use the tricks of finding an enemy to help stay in power, who cares how many you kill doing that...like bombs in India and Bangledesh...always from polititians and rarely from terrorists

[hoytedow]

Originally Posted by mark775

"...international politics that gives rise to such poverty."
Those people being turds is now our fault? Don't MAKE me send John Candy up there!

...or Eric Cartman.

[ancient kayaker]

Originally Posted by Dave Gudeman

... Hey, how's that sailing-upwind thing going?

'bin sick for a couple of weeks which delayed the start of work, also was finishing up a sailboat that was in the way. The sailboat should go out into the cold after Christmas at which point I will be out of excuses! I'll wake up the other thread when there is something to report.

[Groundpounder]

I am Bostons friend who intends to start the naval escorting business. Thank you all for your posts; I appreciate the input, especially form Mark775 who has been on target about almost every thing. The Norwegian torpedo boats wont work because of high operating coasts, the impossibility of rearming it with missiles, the extreme difficulty of keeping high tech weapon systems maintained, and the difficulty of taking one of these into port. These boats were built to wage war against other war boats, not to stop a bunch of bandits in a wooden craft. There were a number of questions raised and I will endeavor to answer them. We have researched this and determined that it can be done legally. The reasons for doing this are simple. One: the think this kind of stuff is fun; you have to be a little twisted to want to serve on the tip of the spear. Two: I suspect we could make a lot of money. Three: someone has to do it. Armament would consist of two .50 calibers in dual configuration on the bow and probably one on each corner on the stern. We would also want a belt fed 7.62x51 for each of the rest of us; not to mention a handful of assault rifles or shotguns for the possibility that we captured prisoners. The M134 minigun is not a possibility due to the extreme coast of purchasing the weapon as well as the difficulty of making port with it. It is much more practicable to arm the boat with M60/M240 machine guns. This is subject to change depending on the configuration of the boat that we eventual buy. I would think that hitting something off of a boat will not be too different then hitting something off of the back of a Humvee with a 50 cal on a dirt road while moving at 45 mph. Several of our guys have trained on ship to ship combat with belt fed weapons. We will probably be operating out of Djibouti.
The boat I am looking at is this. http://commercial.apolloduck.com/fea...html?id=108835
Please keep in mind that none of us have much experience with boats and I have none. Boston suggested that I ask you my questions. The first is what is the range of this boat? Is it fast enough to engage the pirates for a short time and then make it back to whatever we are escorting. One of our guys is a combat veteran who also is a master mechanic and rebuilds engines for Caterpillar. Is he going to be able to handle our mechanical issues as they arise. What is the cost going to be to maintain this craft? Also, would it be possible to have one of the ships we are escorting refuel us as part of the contract? Will these engines run on their fuel? None of us have any sort of a nautical license. What do we need? If we need to do some schooling, the new GI bill will pay for it. Would it be better to hire a captain? Thank you for your input on these issues.

[dskira]

WHO, WHO,
I think this thread is going a little to far off the "boat Design" intended.
I do not want to hear about armement, guns, amunitions, weapon and other mercenary things.
Please keep you war question, even if its chassing pirate, to other forum, who will be delighted to tell you what boat is the best to kill each other
THIS IS WRONG, and I realy not happy about it.
Groundpowder please ask legitimate questions about your boat.
What you do with, keep it for yourself.
Boston, could you not answer the phone anymore? Thanks
Cheers
Daniel

[Boston]

and the abuse begins

Jar head ( that would be you Groundpounder )
be ready for all kinds of answers including everything from "you murdering bastard" to "kill kill kill".
hang in and eventually you will get some reasonable answers to reasonable questions. B

personally I kinda like that boat you have picked out

[dskira]

Originally Posted by Boston

and the abuse begins

Jar head ( that would be you Groundpounder )
be ready for all kinds of answers including everything from "you murdering bastard" to "kill kill kill".
hang in and eventually you will get some reasonable answers to reasonable questions. B

personally I kinda like that boat you have picked out

Wrong Boston, we ARE abuse not the other way around.
Be ready Groundpowder to be kick off if you continue with your armement crap.
Buy a boat, do what you want, kill who you want, but not here, sorry.
we are not the IQ for some crazy mercenary who play the international police against piracy.
I will, as a member, not perticipate at that kind of childish and dangerous behavior.
I will kindly let Jeff be the judge of that if this thread will continue in that direction.
Boston don't be who you are not. Arms and killing is very serius, you should be a little more aware of that.
Nobody is a "murdering bastard", I just think GroundPowder as nothing to offert to the peaceful and sometime heated politicaly forum, in which you, Boston, participate with humour and witt.
So no need to hang on if you don't change your tune Groundpowder.

Cheers
Daniel

[Frosty]

Hang on a minute here, Ground powder is willing do do a dirty job, a job that you wont /cant do. Killing is wrong but then so is piracy.

Its all very well instructing us what is right and wrong but what should be done about the horrendous organised almost cooperate piracy in the Djibuti area?

yes we could bury our head in the sand and let them control shipping, which will increase insurance and cost resulting in more inflation.

So--I cant wait DS,-- what should we do on Piracy

[dskira]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Hang on a minute here, Ground powder is willing do do a dirty job, a job that you wont /cant do. Killing is wrong but then so is piracy.

Its all very well instructing us what is right and wrong but what should be done about the horrendous organised almost cooperate piracy in the Djibuti area?

yes we could bury our head in the sand and let them control shipping, which will increase insurance and cost resulting in more inflation.

So--I cant wait DS,-- what should we do on Piracy

Frosty, mercenary, they can do what they want, mostly be a bunch of low life with a big gun. Stallone is gone. But this is not the place to discuss KILLING, but to discuss in a peacefull way the problem of piracy, the why of piracy, and perhaps before having the gun, to know a little about boat, because piracy is ON THE WATER.
So big gun, big prisonners, big killing, big bastards, bad pirate should be discussed not on a forum of boaat design, but on the mercenary forum and with people who love big gun.
Fatigue and camouflage has no place here.
If GunPowder gave a rationale of what he want to do to help the drama of piracy, I will hear him. His guns? I don't want to hear. It's childish, misguided and certainly unlawful. You don't hunt human being, period.
We know what happened when the hutting season opened without rules in Brazil. Everybody forget this very sad evenement 45 years ago.
It is more easy to kill than to check the fact before.
You last sentence Frosty will absolutly not descrive what I was talking about, and you know it.
Cheers
Daniel