How does he do it? Dashew's new 77 foot powerboat cheaper to run than Beowulf.

If you sail, it doesn't cost zip, period. A good rigging can be replaced every twenty yeas if taking care of, sail the same.
If you need a genset and engine to have all the comfort of a condominium, and the arrival time with the presision of an Amtrak, that will cost a lot, sailing or not.
You have to choose, you sail or not.
The rest is just a bizarre calculation where motoryacht cost less to sail than sailing.
You can prove everything when you want to get your product sold.
Who ever you are.

 

Kite Assisted Power Yacht

This might be an interesting variation to consider...

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/new-age-trawler-motorsailer-kite-assisted-poweryacht-20319.html

 

Yes the numbers can be very misleading.

20 year old sails with many 10's of thousands of miles on them are very common and the material is relatively cheap, a suite of cruising sails is not as big an investment as some people seem to think once you get away from the name brandsand expensive labour. In Australia we can import good professional sails from Asia that cost half the local Name-brand lofts for the same material the same lofting program and equal quality. It's worth shopping around.

Cost of the rig and sails comes back to the design and the materials. For example a design that allows for heavier masts can give you a considerably cheaper rig with many more fabrication options.

A lofty sloop rig on a large boat is very expensive. The cost seems to escalate exponentially with the size of the rig. I've recently seen quotes for a ketch option with both masts fully rigged cost considerably less than the cutter option. It depends where the extrusions are sourced.

 

There is indeed a VERY long thread on this subject, though I was unable to find it with a quick search. It's nice to see some informed input on the subject.

To suggest however, that "if you sail, it doesn't cost zip, period" is as absurd a suggestion as I've seen on the topic. Yes, you can operate a sailboat with relatively little expense if you choose. The same can be said for a powerboat.

I remain convinced now, as I was when I put forward the suggestion originally, that for most people operating a displacement powerboat is less costly than an exquivalent sailboat.

The simple reality is that most 'sailors' operate under power for a significant percentage of their cruising time, so the only real difference between the two is the cost of maintaining the mast, sails and rigging.

 

It's here

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/cruising-costs-maintenance-price-boat-sailboats-versus-motorboats-11479.html

 

Doesn't cost zip is a double negative so he's correct

But hey there's over a billion people in this world that live on less than $1 per day. Lots of these people fish transport and trade in coastal craft of various sizes and in areas where the wind blows the majority of the bigger boats are crab claw or some other efficient low tech rig that costs next to zilch.
You'll commonly see such (or similar) vessels cramming the small ports in Africa, much of Asia, the Arab countries Micronesia and Indonesia.
So what do you actually compare here. Those poorer (by our standards) people can not afford to buy feed and maintain an engine but they can shift their trading vessels between islands or coastal towns with crudely woven sails and spars cut from bamboo and backyard saplings. Some of these boats make quite long international passages in the Indian ocean.

Seems to me this is where you should draw the base line . From there on up it's glitz glammer convenience and marketing.

 

I think that's a very valid point, Lyndon. To make a valid comparison, we would have to start with the most basic rig that gets the job done, and the most basic powertrain we can think of to compete against it.

The cost of commercially produced fittings, sails and equipment for a sailing yacht rig is, at least in North America, very high. Not because of the intrinsic value of the components, but rather because the market has become accustomed to $1200 winches, $50 shackles, and Spectra etc. running rigging that costs $2 a foot. You don't need any of this stuff to sail, and if we take the racing influence out of the cruising rig, I don't see why there's any need for it to be anywhere near as expensive as it often is.

 

to marshmat
I just wonder how much sailing you have done?
you need stuff that does not break because believe me, on a bigger boat breakage can at most kill at least maim, and when short handed a breakage can cost a darned sight more than the cost of the initial(costly rigging) sure you dont need titanium shackles, but high strength running and runners are better than wire flailing around
Have you, may I respectfully ask, been at sea, after a full gale has run for 3 days over a 500 mile fetch? I can tell you that strong reliable gear is a must and that is why racing is important, because the gear was developed for that purpose and a cruising man is better off for it. you watch your wife as she cranks on a headsl, if the winch is oversize and thje line is good, you feel ok, if not you worry
Sure you can go buy some laid ploughline, tens cents foot, or such, or some laid nylon for sheets, but nobody enjoyed that stuff except for mooring lines
I SWITCHED from high end sailing yachts as builder, because of the 250000 ks I had to spend above deck Now with same size power boat , small engined disp type, I dont have to spend on deck and 250000 buys 250000 litres of fuel which NOBODY will use in a lifetime of boating
On the other hand there are 60 footers that will burn 550 l an hour and those people use more than their fair share of the worlds fuel

 

PassageMaker Magazine articles, Nov-Dec 2008

This issue of the magazine had two good articles on 'cruising vessels':
1) a 12 page article on Motorsailers, and
2) an 11 page article on Dashew's Wind Horse after 35,000 miles

**(for the other text and reference link sites in this letter see this posting)
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/motorsailers/monohull-verses-multihull-powersailers-motorsailers-4499-11.html#post243981

 

Hi Whoosh,

In response to your comments in pose 23, I can assure you, I have nowhere near as much sailing experience as you have- none of the boats I use on a regular basis are intended for use beyond sight of shore. Your opinion, therefore, counts for a lot more than mine on this matter.

I'm not advocating the use of low-quality gear. Indeed, I think it would be downright irresponsible to bring equipment on board that isn't up to handling several times the loads you'll ever expect it to see.

However, I do think that West Marine, Harken, Lewmar & friends have been hyping the need for the "latest and greatest" racing-derived technology rather too much. The high cost of a lot of modern gear often seems to be disproportional to its strength and durability. The desire for a high-strength but ultra-light part invariably leads to high purchase cost, and usually higher repair costs when things wear out. It should be possible to build rigs that are more than strong enough, but not expensive. I'm reminded of the story of a Buehler-designed cruiser that swatted a small aircraft out of the sky, with no damage to her sub-$5000 rig.

 

well sure no offence and agree, lewmar quoted 23k NZ for a hyd/ pwer pack, I built one for less than 4k, inc 24vdc motor, controls the whole bit
then the ******** gobble up people like Meissner winch and start controlling the market
Then the spar makers, charge 40 a kg for extrusion which they bought for 5!!, silly no other industry is like ours
no wonder Dashew containers his gear in bulk down to NZ, why get ripped off,
Hey Steve where you buy your JD engines?

 

I've been passed a little too closely by those boats and their associated 5' wake more times than I care to remember....

On the boat that started this thread- Steve and Linda were reporting about 26 L/h required to feed Wind Horse, http://www.setsail.com/dashew/fuel_costs_Sept08.html That's not bad at all, only about three to four times what my Hyundai burns per hour, and about the same as an F250 towing a decent sized trailer. Granted, the car/truck is a hair over five times faster. But there's one figure on that page that really caught my eye- the estimate of 20 cents a nautical mile for driveline maintenance and eventual rebuild. Or, about five cents per engine per kilometre. That's actually less than my car (8.8 c/km for repair & maintenance), if their estimate is accurate.

 

I think, they were using the JD engines 6 cyls I have no idea of the ratings, but as you know a ruff rule of thumb, is 2 imp gal per hr per 50bhp or abt 9 litres, given that modern engines use a bit less, (in actual fact, the mech efficiency of say a modern crosshead as used in large ships, keeps improving)then they would say be using fuel for 150bhp,
I dunno anything abt his boat but that is not very much hp for a 77 foot boat, I must look up the disp,

 

Windhorse is actually 84' LOA, 81' LWL, max beam is 17'10" and much less at the waterline. Full load displacement is published as 100,000 pounds. Engines are JD 4045 150Hp @2600. 150 HP used at 11 knots is right in the ballpark.

 

http://idlewildexpedition.ca/index.php