EFI vs Carb?

[Frosty]

Well isnt that just the point. You have to buy what they have to sell, we have to be guinee pigs.

I dont see them giving a choice, "I want a 200 HP yamaha with carbs please".

Ive never heard of them even giving a choice of colours.

[mydauphin]

Well- I think you have two choices
1. Buy a fairly new hi-tech motor that doesnt require much and when it starts giving troubles sell it.
2. Or buy a simple older motor, learn how to do everything yourself and understand it completely.

Because when I am out on water and want to be able get it going. Some of these engines are just too complicated for a boat. KISS system .
Some engines in each category are simpler than others

May be you dont get the best performance, emission, or mileage but you spend more time on water and less in shop. And more money in your pocket for gas.

I went looking at outboards a couple months ago. The dealer was upset because I removed all the covers to see motors and servicabilty. I could not recognize half of what was under cover. I am staying with my old Evinrude. It doesnt even have oil-injection and I have to mix oil but guess what it is 20 years and still works fine.

[Willallison]

Do you have an old clunker for a car that belches smoke everywhere you go too?
Sure - modern engines - of any description - are a home-mechanics nightmare. But the flip side is that they are INFINITELY more reliable, so breakdowns are usually the result of poor maintenance.

[tuantom]

Nightmare? Naahh. You just have to be brave and add new tools to your collection - and a manual.

[Willallison]

...but some of the diagnostic tools can be a touch on the expensive side....like thousands...

[tuantom]

I almost forgot forgot about the bags of money.

[mydauphin]

I drive a Diesel truck that I fix myself because the mechanics in my area are a bunch of crooks.
I have large yacht with twin Detroit Diesels that I can fix myself because those mechanics are even more expensive.
And a small 4 stroke Carb. Nissan Outboard that I can fix myself that has never broken but is very simple. KISS
All of them can be repaired easily without special tools in the middle of no where and I carry the spares to keep them running with me. They dont smoke, all perform well and cost me little to maintain and run

After having boats for 30 years - I am not impressed by the latest glitz. Talk to me after the engine has a few thousand hours on them.

[Willallison]

Sorry - that wasn't meant to be a personal dig at you... But few people are either capable or inclined to do the day to day maintenance that is required to keep older style engines going. Indeed, I suspect it won't be too long before it's illegal to run them in many parts of the world.

I had a 90hp 6 cyl in-line curburetted merc o/b on my 1st ski boat. It was a good engine, but I had to 'fix' it on more than one occaision.
Then a 200hp EFI on my next (well, actually I had an inboard too, but that's beside the point). It was an infinitely better engine - excellent throttle response, no fouling of plugs etc etc. Never missed a beat, and I still have it.
We replaced the twin 200hp carburetted mercs on our fishing boat with DFI's - they are a league ahead of the EFI. And I recently had the pleasure of running a pair of new 275hp merc Verado's. They are a quantum leap ahead of the DFI's.
What I'm getting at is that sure, they are more complicated, but they're better too. Newer engines are cleaner, lighter, more fuel efficient and more reliable. It's difficult to mount a case against them.

[mydauphin]

The cost of these engines is increasing dramatically.These new engines are more costly than complete boats used to cost just a few years ago. And because of the their higher costs you want them to last longer but because they are so complicated in a marine environment, they will have problems that will cause them to be retired early. Therefore their costs are even higher. I will never buy anything in a boat that because of access or sophistication I cannot fix myself. Are new motors better? OF Course!!! Do I want them, sometimes.
Just Something I have learned the hard way after 30 years of boating and countless boats.

I wish the anti-pollution people would stay out of the engines and let the engineers build simple more efficient engines.

[Willallison]

Well - that I can't argue with - with the possible exception of how long they will last. And of course most people do less than 100hrs per year so they'll never wear one out anyway. Of course, you could always argue that since they do so few hours, there's little point in having all the technical advances....

[Frosty]

I have to agree with Mydauphin here. I know they are nice and responsive and pull well and tickover nicely but there comes a time when it plays up. I too will not have anything on board I cant fix.

A freind of mine had a brand new outboard fitted to his boat, he called me and asked me to go and look, there had been a problem.

Some how the "fitters" had managed to short out the whole wiring loom, there was burnt wire every where, even to the spark plugs which are now coils as well. They wanted to cut open the loom and repair it. Then they agreed to replace the loom. On my advice I told my freind to ask for a new engine.

This was on the grounds that there a sensors and all kinds of sensative electronic devises. Surprisingly the dealer agreed and replaced the whole engine.

That engine would probably have been a dog, and the dealer new it.

I dont like things as sensative as this. Never mind a workshop manual ,you will need a three day training in diagnostics and a thousand dollar diagnostic computer to even look at it.

[mydauphin]

I will keep brief since on cell at dr office.
More boats die because of lack of usage than anything else. If you let boat or motor sit around without proper prep ans storage you better be willing to strip down as much as possible before crank. Water especially sea water is major corrosive and every wants disentegrate. So less is better to maintain... I had 2 stroke outboard before on big canoe... that motor went to bottom of bay at least 3 times. And I would pull plugs flush it with new gas and it would keep running.. try that with a new state of art engine.... later

[TerryKing]

Originally Posted by Willallison

Do you have an old clunker for a car that belches smoke everywhere you go too? Sure - modern engines - of any description - are a home-mechanics nightmare. But the flip side is that they are INFINITELY more reliable, so breakdowns are usually the result of poor maintenance.

Well. Infinitely is quite a large number. Why do they need diagnostic tools??

Most modern cars and light trucks have engine control systems that can be read out with a $200 or less interface. You can sit the laptop on the passengers seat and see some data on the road if necessary.

It seems to me that the time and cost involved with diagnosing and replacing oxygen sensors, Mass Air Flow sensors, and the occasional injector is just as much as the points, condensor and occasional carb rebuild were in an older decade. Just different.

The electronic distributors are very reliable I have to say, in my experience. The GM HEI distributor I put on my boat's 350 10 years ago has been bulletproof, whereas the old points/condenser system took yearly maintenance.

Still an interesting question of what you can fix on your own, offshore! If I was doing a long cruise / passage I'd want to carry a spare distributor.

Unfortunately many 'skippers' have no ability or intention of really fixing an engine if it fails. Call for help...

[Frosty]

It seems to me that this forum hold 2 kinds of people. Those who know what it is like to be off shore at 4 in the morning with howling sees, vomiting crew/family or worse yourself. Still having to fix a problem that you do not yet know what it is and yet still vomiting violently. Trying desperately to get on the way. probably lying ahull

Attempting to vomit in a way as to do least damage, yet seriously considering yourself becoming unconcious and the consiquences of of this on your crew/family. Turning nuts and bolts is possible if you can keep your brain alive and in control. Soldering something in this situation is impossible.

Untill you have experienced this,--- You have absalutely no idea.

When you do you will have a different attitude to electronics.

Cars ?--- great if it stop get a taxi.

We are talking outboards here ok. Sitting in a slosh well with even 2 meter seas trying to fix --well what-- what can you fix. What you need is a little back up engine with points and a carb,--that'lle get you home.

[mydauphin]

I don't think there is anything wrong with Fuel injection and electronic ignition. If they are self contained, sealed and reliable, OK. But the minute they think they are smart, making engines that do all kinds of interactions with itself based on sensors... Then it gets too complicated to be reliable. As far as electronic distributors being reliable. I get ride of it completely. At this point in my life I wouldn't own a gasoline powered engine in a boat. I like direct injection diesels,the only thing you have to do is crank them over.

In outboards, how about a magneto powered ignition, a simple gravity/suction fed carb. Sorry if it pollutes a little. The truth is nature is very good at breaking down oil, a organic natural substance and global warning is not being caused by boaters. Try the millions of Jet planes and cars.... But that is another story...