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  #1  
Old 02-10-2012, 01:34 PM
PRB PRB is offline
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Displacement hull fishing boat?

I am new to this forum, not even a boater and first thing I would like to thank you all because I have learned quite a few things by reading these pages.

I am seriously thinking of buying a power boat to cruise the inner passage of British Columbia. By searching the net I gather that for somewhere around 150 thousand dollars it is possible to buy one of those aluminum 30 to 40 foot sport fishing vessels which I do not though want because of the planning hull and the fuel bills it would imply. Would it be possible to have a similar vessel with a displacement hull for about the same much money?

You all seem to be great experts, so I hope this question doesn’t appear too naive and I beg your pardon if it does.
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Old 02-10-2012, 02:54 PM
Stumble Stumble is offline
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PRB,

welcome to the world of boating... it is also something of an addiction.

It is perfectly possible to find a boat in your price range, likely at less money than a comparable sport-fishing boat. Even assuming the same hull design, and equipment the large engines required to drive a boat that fast can cost a hundred thousand dollars or more new, and on a boat this size could price at $50,000 for the used engines (or more). By comparison a displacement hull might have a few thousand dollars in the engine (likely only 1 instead of 2, at 1/10 the HP) and drive train.

Just a few option, though i cant recommend them, they just showed up first on a search.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi..._id=12784&url=

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi..._id=77126&url=

they can be a bit hard to find, so look for boat listed as trawlers, or expedition class.Then you have to check max speed, something under 12kn ideally. The problem is that even modern Trawlers are being pushed to 25+kn, which to me just isnt a trawler... but thats another conversation.

You could also get in touch with a local boat broker and tell him what you are looking for. And let himknow that you want a true displacement hull.


Honestly I wouldnt be so worried that the boat has to be aluminium, for a fast boat it becomes more desirable, but the hallmark of displacement hulls is that they can take lots of weight for their size.
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Last edited by Stumble : 02-12-2012 at 02:09 PM.
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  #3  
Old 02-10-2012, 04:55 PM
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Thank you Stumble

that is a comforting bit of news. I hadn’t realized that just the engines of those boats could cost so much, but actually it figures considering their power. I will carefully steer clear from that type of boat.

I had already looked at used boats – even narrowed my search to trawlers in the north west – and noticed that there are many for sale for my budget, but I would rather buy a new boat. For one thing I dislike fiberglass… I’d even go back to chromium for car bumpers
Plus I understand that unpainted aluminum doesn't require any – or very little – maintenance and I guess it will take me a while to pass from zero boating to understanding how to take good care of a hull. I mean, wood would be grandiose but it sort of frightens me. But of course a used trawler, better if steel, remains an option if I can’t find a new boat.

What I liked about the fishing boats is that they look sturdy and no-nonsense – or at least not too much – and I understand that you can personalize them, like a longer or shorter cabin. I for example would spend some money for insulation because I sort of dream of cruising up north when - if ever – I’ll feel sufficiently confident with my boating skills.

Unfortunately I haven‘t found anything like those boats but with a displacement hull. Do you think some of the boatyards that make the planning hull ones could make one with a displacement hull, or does it require totally different skills and workmanship?
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Old 02-12-2012, 12:09 PM
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Tad Tad is offline
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A new boat within your $150k budget is quite small.

This is a full displacement aluminum trawler yacht available new for approximately $110k......The TimberCoast 22' built by Bartender Boats.....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/5817789...7624980781279/

Displacement hull fishing boat?-5055844651_48cd12349c_b.jpg
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  #5  
Old 02-12-2012, 12:57 PM
Wavewacker Wavewacker is offline
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Check out the KODIAK small trawlers, there was recently a nice one for about 50K I believe....BTW, Welcome!

You can fish from a kayak. There are many threads about displacement boats here with small power requirements, you might consider a motor catamaran or even "converting" a sailboat to motor.
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  #6  
Old 02-12-2012, 01:01 PM
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This is a really good looking little boat. It adds up to 500 $ per foot, so I could get to 30 feet for 150K .
That was for a joke, but perhaps we could make and even simpler design and get my dream boat
I will check you site
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:03 PM
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The above was for Tad.

Wavewacker, thanks, I will check the Kodiak trawlers
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  #8  
Old 02-12-2012, 02:16 PM
Stumble Stumble is offline
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PRB,

Don't worry too much about a relatively new used boat. Say anything in the last 10 years or so that hasn't been abused will be fine, it might take a little bit of time and money to work out the bugs, but you have the same problem with new boats. Anchors for instance are not normally included in a new boats price, but they come for free when buying used.

Look for something around 10 years old, with diesel(s), and less than 1,000 hours on the engines (the first rebuild is usually at around 3-5,000), and get a good survey. You will either save a lot of money, or get a lot more boat for the same amount. Just like in cars a boat will loose 1/3 of its value as soon as it is titled, and another 1/3 in the first 5 years, after that it starts to level off a good bit.
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  #9  
Old 02-13-2012, 01:40 PM
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Thanks again to all, and here are a few more bits of info about my plans.
First, mine is planning ahead because I should be spending six month along the British Columbia coast but only in 2014. I am though planning to spend about one month this fall or early spring 2013 in the Vancouver area to learn how to handle a boat, look at used boats and learn as much as possible. I also hope on other chances to fly to Vancouver.

As said I had first thought of a sport fishing boat because they look sturdy, no-nonsense and relatively cheap. Somewhere on the net I think I remember finding a shipyard offering a new 28 foot one for less than 90.000 $, but I didn't really look at the details. Having though understood the advantages of displacement hulls, I have dropped my initial plan and by reading through these pages I have sort of fallen in love with the idea of having one custom made, but I realize it could well be just daydreaming.

My ideal boat would have a thin and long hull to save on fuel, no expensive wood and few gadgets, but work boat type finishing, a good heating and new systems: I'm not what you'd call a DIY type of guy, so a broken diesel engine to me is just a broken diesel engine. I just want a solid boat, not one to show off, in the line of the one of longcours but smaller: he claims he could built a new one for about 100.000 euros.

So, given my budget, my ideas and the little I have learned on these pages I now realize that the first step is probably asking – and this looks like the right place – if anyone thinks this project is totally stupid and, if not, if anyone can suggest who could help me – not for free of course – in my project. But keep in mind my schedules.
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Old 02-13-2012, 03:09 PM
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PRB,

You raise a couple of issues, some of which you may not even realize, but are important. I will try to cover them below.

Yacht or workboat finish - Being willing to sacrifice on finish can be an asset when looking at boats, but only if you are positive you want to live on board a boat that feels like a industrial plant, with exposed pipes, wires, and fixtures. Basically this limits you to boats already built for the industrial world, and come with those limitations, and designs available. This generally means a larger boat, with more, not less systems, and likely very old. Simply because most commercial operators own boats for a long time to justify their purchase.

If you were to buy new, it would means systems designed around the intended use of that boat, with little consideration for comfort, or livability. They are also typically much larger, with much more powerful engines, and much higher equipment costs than a boat built for private use. Remember they have a whole host of commercial regulations they must comply with that a private boat doesn't.

New, used, or custom - Frankly I think a new or custom boat for you will eat up so much of you available budget that you would be forced into a much smaller boat than you want for little gain. Typically a custom boat, even poorly finished will cost more than a new boat of comparable size/design. Simply because the cost of design and fabrication can't be spread out over a large number of similar ships. Additionally a lot of the bugs in a design are figured out in the first few boats, and if yours is the only one... Well you get to figure them all out, or pay for someone else to do so. this is why even 'custom yachts' tend to really be custom interiors, built on the same power train, systems, and design.

A good used boat on the other hand is probably from a production run, so those issues are already dealt with, and the cost of buying new has already been written off by the first owner. Additionally a lot of used boats have never been used. I just looked at a 10 year old used sailboat with 14 hours on the engine, and 4 hours on the generator. This is the extreme, but may boats rarely if ever leave the dock, and the owners eventually are done paying for something they don't use, and sell them cheap.


In short, no I don't think your idea is stupid. But I do think a good used boat of the type you are looking for is the best option. It will get you a lot more boat (quality and quantity), than you could otherwise afford, it will have a lot of the new boat bugs worked out by someone else, and if you decide to sell it you won't loose nearly as much, assuming you keep it in reasonable shape.


As for not being mechanically inclined. There are really only a few options here.

1) take a community school class in diesel engine repair. This will give you the background to fix about 90% of the problems you will encounter on the water. It should take about 6 months, and be relatively cheap.

2) hire a full time captain. This is actually the second most expensive option, since most small boat captains don't get paid much, and do it for the love of boating. Even if you just hire him for a year or two to teach you how to run the boat, this is a pretty good option. And a good captain can be had, at least in New Orleans for around $20,000 a year. Plus living accommodations aboard the boat.

3) hire a mechanic to do everything. Of course for major engine repair this is still necessary, but paying someone to do oil changes, and replace filters can be really expensive. Most of these big diesels need an oil change every 48-72 hours of run time, so even a long weekend running could cost you $1,000. As compared to a hundred or so if you do the labor yourself. This is the one option I wouldn't recommend.
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  #11  
Old 02-13-2012, 07:02 PM
PRB PRB is offline
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Stumble, I really appreciate what you say and agree that you are probably right about having more boat with a used boat than with having one custom made.
About the industrial finish, I meant rubber floors and what else versus wood and plush carpeting, but hell no I do not want it to be a work boat. If anything I think of some refinement as an little extra budget, perhaps to be done later on. But I'm sort of minimalistic in my tastes.

What you say about diesel engines scares me: I certainly can learn how to change filters and oil – I do that with my lawn mower, but I thank the Lord for having given us Briggs and Stratton engines –, but it does sound strange to me changing the oil every 48-72 hours. This might be with old engines but not on a small engine that would serve my purpose. In fact this sort of problems is what scares me about buying a used boat. In other words, if I were to buy a used one, I would then have to spend more money on updating hardware and, before that, for someone to verify the hull and all that. I love the signature sentence at the end of your post, but unfortunately I never though of screwing with a boat.

What you say about design and new fabrication sounds perfectly reasonable, only perhaps not very flattering for the boat designers who hang around this forum. In any case I'd thought it could be possible to build on a proven hull design, but I don't know, I'm here to learn.

By the way, what would you think of a 1960ish wooden Grand Banks: there are quite a few for sale in the northwest, and I really like their simple layout and looks, so much more stylish than the multi deck trawlers of other big brand names.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:09 PM
Stumble Stumble is offline
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PRB,

I think I scared you, and certainly didn't intend to.

A big marine diesel, or even a small one like you are thinking of, in the 100-200hp range normally are pulled from industrial used, like tractors, and 18 wheelers. These are very robust engines with a long service life but they do need ongoing maintenance, just like a car to live out a full lifespan.

About 90% of a diesels problems will be one of the following:
1) fuel
2) air
3) oil
4) coolant

By far the most common problem I have experienced is bad fuel, or a clogged fuel filter (commonly called RACOR's). The solution to this is pull the filter, replace the filter, prime the system, and start the motor. A reasonably handy person can do this is 20-30 minutes.

Air - either the air filter is clogged, or it isn't. Replacement takes minutes. Just unsnap the housing, and replace it.

Oil - unlike most cars, marine diesels are designed to have oil changes done easily. This means an accessable oil pan, and a filter you can get too. It is also common to have an oil change pump that sucks up the old oil, then you just poor in the new, and switch filters. On my boat this takes ~20 minutes per engine.

Coolant - there is a water pump, if it's pumping water your good, if not you replace the impeller. Takes 20-30 minutes and should be done once a year. If the impeller is good then it's normally the heat exchanger either being low on coolant so you add more (just like filling up a radiator), or the exchanger is clogged ( call a mechanic to fix it).

The problem is a decent marine mechanic normally charges 1-200 for the service call, an hour minimum of time, and an hour to return to his shop. Plus a helper who also gets paid. By the time you add it all up for an oil change that takes 20 minutes you are paying for 8 hours of mechanic time. Knowing how to do it yourself might cost 20-50 depending on the amount of oil, and filter size. Just these few tricks will cover everything you can generally do yourself onboard anyway with the parts you are likely to have. It really isn't that difficult, you just have to learn your way around an engine room.

As for boat selection... I see where you are going, but on most boats the cost of nice woodwork, vs the cost of unfinished is minimal. Marine furniture is usually structural to the boat in some regard, and so has to be built strong, if not pretty. But it doesn't take that much more to also make it pretty. So on a 500k boat most people are ok if 5,000 is for varnish and wood trim, vs saving a little. It just isn't a big enough piece of the bill to matter.

And for most buyers where a boat is a second luxury home.... Well the wife wants a nice place.


Personally I would stay clear of anything made out of wood. There are members here who disagree, and I understand their arguments, but a wood boat to me is just a undiscovered maintenance problem waiting to happen. If you love working in wood, and can do so, then it is fine. But for me it just adds to the work necessary to keep a boat in good shape.

I would recommend you look in either aluminium or fiberglass, though steel is also reasonable. A good survey should cost no more than $2,000, and should uncover all the issues needed at purchase. This is where a owners rep, or trustworthy broker can pay their way in gold. They should know which yards and maintenance guys are good, and help you get any defered maintenance done at a reasonable price. Generally I figure 5-10% of the purchase price will go towards immediate maintenance issues, more if there is a specific problem.
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:25 PM
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whitepointer23 whitepointer23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
PRB,

Don't worry too much about a relatively new used boat. Say anything in the last 10 years or so that hasn't been abused will be fine, it might take a little bit of time and money to work out the bugs, but you have the same problem with new boats. Anchors for instance are not normally included in a new boats price, but they come for free when buying used.
in australia we don't even call a boat 2nd hand until it is 20 years old. i turn green with envy when i look at what you can buy in the usa , what a fantastic market for buyers.
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Old 02-15-2012, 03:09 AM
PRB PRB is offline
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Oh, don't worry Stumble, it takes more than that to scare me out of my project. I’ll keep your post to remember things to enquire about when I'll be actively searching for my boat or when the engine will stop in the middle of nowhere
My dream would be an electric engine with a generator, but it's only dreaming for now.
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Old 02-15-2012, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
4 Most of these big diesels need an oil change every 48-72 hours of run time, so even a long weekend running could cost you $1,000.
Glad I have small diesels

Quote:
Cummins B3.3 the most reliable engine in its class. With service intervals up to 500 hours using low-cost CH-4/ACEA E5 oil, maintenance costs are kept to a minimum.
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