Best approach to build Bertram-like boat

[PAR]

A fair price and a yacht broker in the same sentence is a misnomer, much like suggesting someone is an honest used car salesman. When making purchases of this scale, you need an inspection, just like buying a house or an old car. A surveyor will let you know the "real" story behind the yacht you have your eyes on.

[Stumble]

Rich,

I always use a broker... That being said their are good brokers and bad brokers, the good ones are worth their weight in gold, and will save you money time and frustration. The bad ones are better off shot.

My advice is to head to a local yacht club and get some recommendations from the members. The good ones are active in the boating community, and will have sold and bought boats for the members for years, sometimes generations. Just be sure to ask a number of people on different nights.

As for the boat you are looking at, don't discount the shape some of these older battlewagons are in. The 42 Bertrum may still be the all time favorite boats for deep sea fishing, and are much better than their new builds. Of course their are some Junkers out there, but a lot of them are impeccably maintained and many have professional crews on board. In large part because when you are blowing 50,000 on a fishing rodeo for 3 days, if the boat doesn't work you are screwed.


On another note, it sounds like you may be new to a boat of this size. Assuming this to be true, you may want to take a careful look at the maintenance and operating cost of a boat like this before you buy it. Realistic fuel burn can be $100-150 an hour for a boat this size. Slippage here on the Gulf Coast is cheaper than Callie but still runs about 7k a year, plus 3-4k in insurance, and maybe another 5-10k in annual maintenance. These boats can be a lot of fun, but it isn't unusual to see owners never take them out because of the cost of operating them.

If you don't plan of deep sea fishing, and can give up the speed there are a number of good trawlers in this size range for about the same price, but the maintenance maybe half (1 engine, and it's half the hp), and the fuel burn can be as low as $10/hour. Slippage and insurance stay about the same depending on boat length.

I think Par and I were writing at the same time... I would add that a good surveyor is critical to knowing the story of a particular boat, what's wrong with it, what is right with it, what is cosmetic damage, what's structural, and to some extent the cost of repairs. On any boat this size I would never consider buying without a professional survey (this from a guy who does some surveying for others). But I think a surveyor and a broker do different things, the broker is to help you find the boat of your dreams, the surveyor is there to make sure it isn't really a nightmare.

[SuperConic]

Originally Posted by PAR

Contact Max Carter at maxcarter@marinedesign.co.nz about his 42' sports fisher design.

Hi folks. I've known Max Carter for over 50 years and talk to him or see him very often. When he was an apprentice at Sea Craft in the 1940s, he knew my dad, who was Sea Craft's first dealer. He's still designing -- still in ink on Mylar film, the only way he knows. However, very soon I'm planning on giving him some lessons in using the parametric hull design program that I have been developing. Using complex mathematical equations, it produces hull designs that are just about indistinguishable from Max's hand-drawn ones. The bonus is that a user doesn't actually have to draw anything. A default drawing is already there, and all the user does is change it by changing one or more of about 40 parameters (numbers) in the parameter box. My software produces all of the tables of offsets (for both manual and for CNC cutting) necessary to cut out all of the major parts necessary to build a perfectly fair hull, without lofting. I've called the software SuperConic TM because it's a "super" way to produce perfectly fair conical surfaces for sheet material hard chine planing hull forms. Max has given me very significant help in figuring out some of the intricacies in planing hull design that I have incorporated into the software, including Max's "trademark" conical stem feature. In a few weeks' time I'm planning on building a 16ft plywood runabout to prove that the math that drives SuperConic is correct.
Max's email address shown above is incorrect -- the correct address has a hyphen between marine and design.
Cheers
Peter J. Morgan

[PAR]

Address changed, thanks Peter . . .

[RichMcG]

Wow. Thanks (again) for all of the great advice. And, thanks Peter for the tweak on the email!

Hey stumble. Yes, I would be new to owning a boat of this size (and cost) and appreciate all of the help you are offering keeping me grounded in reality!

As you can tell, I'm still unsure of what my next move will be. My goal is find a vessel that is comfortable to take outside the gate (golden gate bridge) and get into dropping some crab traps as well as going farther for salmon if the season ever comes back and tuna.

I'm wrestling with the exact example you gave which is between a displacement hull or planning. All budgets point toward something like a trawler, but it seem unlikely I would be able to get to the bigger fish at those slower speeds.

Another option for me might be to go for a simple design with big engines. Something like a 30'+ cc with twin outboards. Problem is that this isn't Florida and it gets quite chilly out on the water. A closed cockpit of some sort is very nice to have around here. I know the big outboards would chug some fuel too, but the boat would weight much less than the Bertram I'd really love to have.

[Stumble]

Rich,

It sounds to me like you have a lot of unanswered questions about how you intend to use the boat currently. Honestly until you get a clearer idea I think you are prone to making a mistake by idealizing your usage of the boat. You started out thinking about fishing, and cruising. Now just fishing... Maybe even a center console....

I know where you are at, because I do it for every new boat as well, but before you make any real steps I would try to get some experience on the boats we are talking about. Doing day charters, and overnight charters is a great way to get some experience on different boats, for not much more than it would cost to run your own boat. You can also do some charters on center consoles and see what you think.

There is certainly a financial consideration as well, but an offshore capable center cockpit can run as much as a smaller battlewagon, usually with more speed, but less comfort. A trawler probably falls in the middle in terms of cost, but has the lowest operating expenses, and if you are doing overnight trip the loss of speedway not be a big factor to you. As I understand it your fishing ground are only about 30 miles offshore. So even at moderate trawler speeds you are only talking 4 hours to get out (vs 2 for a battle wagon, and 1 for twin outboards).

Basically I am saying depending on exactly how you would use the boat they all have advantages, and the financial hit for them may not really be quite as large as you think. That 40 Bertram for instance walks away for about 100k, my 26' CC power cat cost me 70k used, and a good trawler is probably somewhere in the middle. All of them could fish your area and do it admirably, but they have different strengths other than just fishing, and only by knowing what you really want to use the boat for can you make an informed decision.

I wish I had a digital copy to show you, but for my new sailboat (new to me at least) I have two pages of information about what I want out of a boat, how I will use it, limitations I have both mission critical and limiting ( draft for instance must be less than 8' since that is what my harbor has, but should be less the 6'6" for the area). Basically I wrote down everything I wanted the boat to do, then arranged them in order, only then did I start the selection process.

Now Rich I have been sailing for 30 years worked in commercial yards, and own 5 boats currently... And I did this all for a boat that is intended for no more than 5 hour day trips... But then over the years it is always the boats I don't do this with that turn into problems, or I am unhappy with for some reason.

[RichMcG]

No doubt I have a lot of questions to answer before making a move! Thanks for continuing to highlight new ones

I'm not familiar with the term battle wagon... I googled it and came up with images of an 18' center console, but it seems like you are using the term to describe a type of boat. Sorry for my ignorance but can you please explain?

The boat I'm building right now is a 19' center console that will probably end up with something like a 115 outboard. It will be great for the sf bay or lake Tahoe, but probably a bit smaller than i would like for going off shore. Technically speaking, I believe in the right weather conditions it would be fine going off shore, but I'm not planning on it given how fast the fog rolls in and the limited electronics I plan to install.

Since you (stumble) mentioned it, I'm curious what your current assortment of personal boats includes. My other passion is sailing (used to race a little in college) and even though so many people in the bay area sail the bay in their big keel boats, my preference is warmer water and smaller boats. sounds like you have a mix of power and wind powered.

Also curious how you like your power cat and what applications you use it for. I find the stability very appealing, but have not been thrilled with look of most I have seen.

Truth is I am torn by various competing desires and limitations. my primary objective is to find a boat with longer range fishing capabilities than my to be completed center console. Next in line is the ability to take a boat on overnight or multiple-day trips.

I am worried about the fuel burn on the Bertram. But I suppose that's really my only exposure to off shore fishing. Whenever we have chartered a boat in the past it has always been some thing along the lines of a 35-40' fly bridge with out riggers, etc...

Do you have any particular trawler favorites? Is there a brand or two that stand above the rest?

Sorry for all of the questions, but I have one more. What is the deal with "lobster" boats. Do they exist without huge holding tanks? I have always liked the style of them, but am not sure if they are practical for the type of fishing I plan to do.

Rich

[Stumble]

Rich I will try to take your questions one at a time...

Battlewagon = large sport fishing boat primarily intended to go after Marlin, Large Tuna, ect... A generic term for Bertrams, Hatteras', ACY, ect.

My current boats (including partnerships)
1) 58' Bluewater Yacht (Manufacturers name, is Bluewater). Really intended for inshore, lake, and ICW cruising. can't take much weather, but it has a huge bridgedeck and can easily have 25+ people out for a party
2) Bertrum 41 - Friends boat I am partners on. Basically taken out for big top predators. Marlin is a favorite.
3) Olson 30 - Racing Sailboat
4) San Juan 28 - Kept in Jamaica. Daysailor, and pleasure cruiser
5) Twin-Vee 26 - Offshore and shallow water fishing boat. More on it in a sec
6) Twin-Vee 24 - Kept in Jamaica. Outfitted for private SCUBA diving, and some light fishing. Basically a run around and see stuff boat.
7) J-22 - Racing Sailboat
8) A couple of dingies, inflatables and such
9) 16' john boat for duck hunting
10) 2 jet skies
11) Hobie 16 - not sailable now... project boat

Currently shopping for:

37-40 foot cruising sailboat
30-35 foot cruising sailboat (replaing the San Juan in jamaica)

Previous involved in
1) Another J-22
2) Lighting - racing sailboat
3) Irwin 54' - cruising sailboat
4) Trip 40 - racing sailboat
5) Kenner 24 - fishing bayboat
6) Oday 39 - cruising sailboat
7) VIP something - waterski boat
8) 420 - collegiate race boat
9) Rhodes 19 - racing sailboat
10) Luder - Racing Sailboat
11) Southcoast 21 - the boat a learned to sail on as a kid
12) 45 Hatteras - Sportfish
13) J-35 - Racing Sailboat
14) More dingies of various sizes
15) Hmm... I am missing a few, but this will do.

On the Twin-Vee...

I am in love with this boat! In fact I loved the 26' so much I bought a 24' to take to Jamaica to dive off of. They are incredibly stable, very fuel efficient, require a lot less horsepower for the size of the boat. Have independant fuel tanks for each engine so if offshore and one conkes out you might make it back. I can go on.

We use the 26' for a lot of purposes, and while I can't say it is the best possible at each, it is pretty good at them all. We routinely run out 50 miles or more to fish open water. Weather is somewhat dependant, but it can take a 3-4 foot chop at reasonable speeds, and we have never had to slow down off of a plane to keep going. The boat routinely runs 30kn or so with twin 150hp engines, loaded for a day of fishing, and has an all day fuel capacity (run out, fish 5-6 hours, run back). For a boat its size this is a pretty amazing blend in my eyes.

On the flip side we also fish the shallow water marches in South Louisiana. The boat drawn about 9" when off a plane, so some of the shallowest water we can't get into, but it is still shallow enough to fish pretty much every where we want. And the stability when 3-4 people are fishing off the same side is incredible. No lost balance, no real problems, and the boat is pretty insensative to weight while running.

I too am torn when it comes to the desire to do different things on boats. But that is half the fun. I really wasnt kidding about either partnering up with someone, or chartering. In most deep sea fishing someone has to stay at the wheel full time, so there are always 2+ people needed to fish anyway.

I really don't know much about trawlers. Around here to get out to the big fishing grounds is a run in the 100 mile range depending on the current that day. Doing it at 8 knots would just kill the ability to make it a reasonable fishing trip. There are certainly some that are better respected than others, but I am just not familure enough with the breed to give you good advice on them. I would just know the big names.

Again on the Lobster boats I just don't know anything about them. Even less than trawlers.



I am happy to help. People that buy boats they don't like tend not to buy more boats. That hurts the entire boating community, and it has enough problems as it without trying to interveen to help people make better decisions.

[RichMcG]

Hey stumble... I think you might have a boat for every occasion!

Thanks for all the info.

I think I'm going to keep my eye out for friends willing to go in on a used Bertram and keep digging on the displacement boats to see if I can learn more. I can't find an example of a trawler with a fighting chair, but seems logical that if the hull speed of the boat was fast enough to troll, and fishing grounds aren't too far, then it could be possible... Right?