Terror @ Taj Palace and Oberoi Trident - India

[millionswords]

Post is continued from another thread, from the Boat Design section, as suggested by ancient-kayaker.

I'm pasting the conversation from that thread for easy reading.

Originally Posted by messabout

P.S. The manner, in which you write, suggests that you may be a westerner. The events at hotels in the last few days cause many of us to be concerned for new found friends in India. We have had our tragic lessons here in the US and, despite what the crazies think, we do care for people elsewhere.

Originally Posted by millionswords

I feel Sorry - Ashamed - Helpless for the act of the terrorists, who seemed to have infiltrated through the waters into south Mumbai, lucky that I was not in Mumbai/Bombay during these attacks, far away some 1500KMs south of Mumbai, but caught in the flood here.!!

It is a security lapse, certainly they have managed to find foreign(US, Israelis and UK) tourists and nail them down. Seems to have been an extended attack of these citizens on less secure or unexpected land! Guess no one can anticipate such attacks and make security measures?

Wonder where this is all leading to? Fear grips!

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

I don't want to highjack this thread for a discussion on terrorism, but while they seem to have targeted foreign tourists, the number of people reported as killed far exceeds the deaths of Israelis, Americans and other westerners. As always, it is the unfortunate standers-by who suffer most in these indiscriminate acts of hatred.

Originally Posted by millionswords

Collateral Damage - do we call it?

The targets to how far my brain can think were:

1. Well Off Indians,
2. Israelis
3. Americans and
4. English

They have asked for passport, and IDs before killing.
They have kept people standing (17 of them) in a line and made a call to someone and asked if they can proceed with the killing(massacre) and executed it.

1. Cafe Leopold is a cafe where the average Indian walks by watching the 3 dozen tables fill with Whites, it was not a place for the common man. Leopold was the first target of shooting early during the attack.

2. Taj was not for the common man, Taj Palace was occupied by the worlds biggest money makers and decision makers. Wonder how many of them have lost life, only to wait and see the list come out with some identification in a few days.

I read, a bank chairman was stopped and asked who he was, and what he does for a living - he replied he was a teacher from bangalore and the terrorist asked him "how a teacher could afford to be at the taj Palace?" and prepared to shoot when a grenade exploded near them and the man escaped to tell the story!

Damn - scary.
Still to see what news comes out and how the plot unfolded.

National Security Guards came to the scene after 9.30 hours! - Dhud! shame.
Operation was over when the last man standing was taken by them and to find no hostages were left alive, and every floor has dead bodies and still counting!

I hate to see the TV now!

PS: Me too don't want to hijack this thread - may be we should discuss these in the open forum. (though this event has some relation to boats we don't want it to be in the boat discussion area!!) - I couldn't help replying. Lets drop it here and continue with the boat building.

Will find some more info on material soon, once the flood recedes and get back to you guys.

bye,
MS

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

My dear MS: I have no words for this, but others might want to read and respond to your news. The news on the topic here is very trite and parochial, we do not get the full picture until days later if at all. I suggest you repost your information in the Post Tsunami forum, which is probably the most appropriate; it is at:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/post-tsunami/

I for one will be looking for it.

-AK

[millionswords]

Date: Dec 01 2008

Post Tragedy, Salvation and Investigation:

1. The scope was wider for the Mumbai tragedy.
2. RDX explosives were found near both the hotel premises in large quantity.
3. One of the bombs went off near the Oberoi Trident hotel, but the impact was reduced due to the bomb squads timely intervention.
4. Bombs were supposed to be escape decoys, but turned out to be a missed plan.
5. The explosions could have spread to 100 meters.!
6. Instructions inside the metal box containing the RDX explosives were written in Urudu language [spoken widely in Muslim countries like Pakistan]
7. Bomb Squad had thrown a bomb blanket during the attacks on the timer set bomb opposite the entrance of the Trident Hotel.

No burial of Pakistan terrorists on Indian soil:
The Muslim Council on Sunday decided not to allow the bodies of the nine Pakistani terrorists killed in the Mumbai attacks to be buried at the Bada Qabrastan (cemetery) on Marine Lines. The Council said it would send a message to all Indian cemeteries that they should not permit the burial of the bodies of terrorists on Indian soil. The Council authorities also handed over a letter to the Marine Lines cemetery along these lines.

Govt downplaying terror toll?

We still do not know how many died in the terror attacks. The government insists the attacks claimed 172. But fire officials told TOI on Sunday they had so far found 160 bodies at Taj alone. Add to that the toll at Oberoi, CST and Nariman House, and it’s obvious that the government is playing down the numbers, and the figures do not total up right!
We have to wait and watch.

Pakistani exSoldier planned the terror attack in 7 phases:
I read the attack was well planned 6 months ago, in pakistani soil, by a ex military man. Intensive training was provided to 25 young men, and 10 were hand picked for this operation. Stamina, strategy and ammunition training were the major part of the one year training.

The stamina of the men that carried the attacks sleepless for about 50 hours in the south Mumbai area have gasped the National Security Guards Commandos[NSG]. Bags of dry fruits and nuts were found near the terrorists that were killed.

One man[ Ajmal Amir Kasab 21y.o] who was captured alive lives to tell the story of the plan and execution. Wonder how much more shocking news is that man going to spell in the following days. Investigations are on in an undisclosed location, and we all know the investigation talents of the sleuths in India. Lets wait for some news to come through.

Two More Terrorists out in the wild?

There could be two more out in this concrete jungle, the blasts some 40 KMs north of Colaba and Church Gate suggests there could be a few more 2 or 3 who have managed to escape. But the JC still sticks to the count of only 10 terrorists came into Mumbai for this attack through the Karachi - Porbunder - Mumbai gate Way of India entry route!

Damn that place - "Gateway of India" is such a crowded place and the sea is crowded with tourists, fishermen, boats, luxury boats, yachts, naval vessels and the Nuclear Hub is just meters away. Wonder what would have been the situation of that was rounded up! India could have been held hostage whole as a nation!

damn!

[Frosty]

I don't know what all the fuss is about , acts of terrorism like this happens every day in Iraq and Afganistan, probably by the same people, they are just as innocent as the Indians or anyone else. But I guess its got boring and there were no posh Hotels owned by Tata in it.

The worst act of terror has to be Hiroshima, followed by Nagasaki the week after, there were other less populated industrial targets that could have made the intended point. But the anger and retaliation for Pearl Harbour perhaps distorted judgment.

I am as confused as anyone else why we have nutters like,-- Hitler, Gadaffi, Idi Amin, Mugabwe, ladin, etc etc etc.

Go shoot Mugabwe if you want to help 00000,s of people Im sorry I just cant get emotional over it anymore.

Twin towers fall.
America sends in tanks ,bombers, latest radar guided missiles 10,000 trained soldiers dig into Afganistan.



Bin Ladin escapes on Donkey.

[RHP]

A very good friend of mine was staying at the Oberoi hotel with his wife during the attack and baricaded themselves in their room for the duration. Fortunately no one came knocking on their door. Another good friend lives in Mumbai and heard all the bombs and shooting frorm their balacony windows. He sent me a further email today: "Some people have lost entire families, grandparents, parents and children as there were 4 weddings taking place in the Taj Hotel that night as this is the traditional wedding season in Mumbai and I have no doubt that the terrorist group had that in mind when they chose the date for the attack - so as to cause the maximum death and terror."

[ancient kayaker]

Originally Posted by Frosty

I don't know what all the fuss is about , acts of terrorism like this happens every day in Iraq and Afganistan, probably by the same people, they are just as innocent as the Indians or anyone else. But I guess its got boring and there were no posh Hotels owned by Tata in it.

The worst act of terror has to be Hiroshima, followed by Nagasaki the week after, there were other less populated industrial targets that could have made the intended point. But the anger and retaliation for Pearl Harbour perhaps distorted judgment.

I am as confused as anyone else why we have nutters like,-- Hitler, Gadaffi, Idi Amin, Mugabwe, ladin, etc etc etc.

Go shoot Mugabwe if you want to help 00000,s of people Im sorry I just cant get emotional over it anymore.

Twin towers fall.
America sends in tanks ,bombers, latest radar guided missiles 10,000 trained soldiers dig into Afganistan.

Bin Ladin escapes on Donkey.

I don't find it boring at all, but I would prefer these things did not happen. It is a sad reflection on our nature as human beings.

The events in Mumbai seem to be covered by the N. American media only as they effect foreign tourists, so I asked MS to provide us with a less slanted viewpoint. We have the "nutters" you mentioned because people fail to stand up to them before they become entrenched.

I read and hear of events in Thailand too; you are closer to that than I, but because you live in interesting times does not entitle you to cynicism. If you are bored, go back to sleep. Or wake up and take action!

[millionswords]

Maximum Damage - did it do any good? Did they earn a single penny? are they going to be chiseled in the history of this world? Did they make a point? Does the world hear them right?

a Big NO, and still the killing goes on!

I can't stand the look on the face of the Captured terrorist Asif, and digest his plead to treat his wounds, he wants to live it seems!!

http://sjsandteam.files.wordpress.co...or-att-007.jpg

I want to live: - http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...se&in_showcase

his statement:
http://sjsandteam.files.wordpress.co...pg?w=479&h=735

[millionswords]

"Kerala" is a south Indian state, and "Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan" died during a valiant fight with the terrorists leading his team who were dead too. His parents live in Bangalore.

The "chief minister" [who runs the state government] decided to go to the dead Major's house and console his parents, which was refused by the Major's father, who said he does not want his son's death to be used by politicians as a tool to promote themselves. Which is fair and right!

Every incident is used by these politicos to gain mileage.

Now the "Chief Minister" Achudhanandan, has commented," if it was Unnikrishnan[the father of the Major] who died, not even a dog would go to see his family"

That was filthy and sad and bad!

When the minister went to see him, and got refused by the dad, the police has forced the family to let them in and meet them, but to no avail, headed by the act, the politico has reacted in such a filthy manner!

[millionswords]

A file photo of the Taj Palace Hotel shot by me - http://www.flickr.com/photos/tamil/646703405/

and a photo of the same place, after the attack!
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv...iattack/20.jpg

[Frosty]

Thailands airport siege is due to the opposite reasons. The police chief was sacked because he refused to send in police and forcibly remove due to possible injuries. The military also do not want to clash with there own people.

I think that even in Uk if some protesters took over Heathrow the army would be brought in and brutality would be used.

Apart from some idiot throwing a hand grenade a few days ago and the odd over zealous police man,-- most violence has been letting down each others tyres.

These people are Budhists ,causing death or hurt to another is unthinkable.

They literally would'nt hurt a fly.

The south? thats islamic. oops a pattern forming again.

Oh by the way avid news readers 25 died yesterday in Irag and hundreds of children die every day in Zimbawe due to nothing more than no clean water to drink, while Mugabwe sits at his cocktail cabinet watching tennis on his 36 inch plasma high definition big screen TV.

So while we mourn the dead with such passion we turn our head from the children who are yet to die,-- today.


Wake up and take action? Stop the world I wanna get off.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by millionswords

A file photo of the Taj Palace Hotel shot by me - http://www.flickr.com/photos/tamil/646703405/

and a photo of the same place, after the attack!
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv...iattack/20.jpg

Is this what it is about then , the Hotel? I could'nt care less about a Hotel and neither could Tatta the owner who incidentally is one of 3 families so wealthy they have more money than the Indian Government.

Those 3 families could cure the poverty in India by themselves or make a damn big hole in it.

Perhaps thats what this attack was about, a personal attack on Tatta and the other rich bloke who owned the other Hotel.

Theres a reason for you.

[millionswords]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Is this what it is about then , the Hotel? I could'nt care less about a Hotel and neither could Tatta the owner who incidentally is one of 3 families so wealthy they have more money than the Indian Government.

Those 3 families could cure the poverty in India by themselves or make a damn big hole in it.

Perhaps thats what this attack was about, a personal attack on Tatta and the other rich bloke who owned the other Hotel.

Theres a reason for you.

frosty,

I really dunno what to reply.
You got a point there! But Tata(Ratan) to me is a simple business man, who does not hurt people but gives 1000s employment unlike the politicians.

You talk about assassinating the ploiticos, no one cares a damn. They just wipe it off and move on. But killing innocent people at a wedding, and on the road! man it got to be checked.

You think it makes sense to hit big businessmen? just because they have grown to where they are now? They have put the hard work to make the money and the business empire? It does not come off without effort my friend!

Well, what ever the reason is, killing some one and then begging to be alive is not pardonable. And please do not argue what these men did was right or what they did was to be ignored, we all agree there are other top priority killings and deaths that go on in this world, we just cannot ignore them too.

If some thing bothers you, I guess it is right to start a thread and debate the same, like the killings in Africa and death of children in Zimb. It is all really sad and bad, if we can we should try to do some thing, at least move a pin.

[Frosty]

What I was suggesting is maybe Tatta ( Ratan) has had some pressure put on him to finance terrorism, he refused and this is the consiquences. Funny how two big hotels owned by two very wealth men should be targeted.

Killing a few other people and a few tourists was maybe an attempt to disguise this.!!! I dont know. Just thinking alloud.

[ancient kayaker]

Frosty, I know you are not trying to justify the actions in India or defend the people who perpetrated them. Businessmen also perform crimes on occasion. Each criminal should answer to the courts, not die at the hands of yet another criminal, else it will never end.

You mention the UK and postulate that " if some protesters took over Heathrow" brutality would be used. Well, if that's what you call necessary police action. In the UK the situation would have been controlled long before reaching such a pass. While it is an fact that, when one group, no matter how legal and well wishing, opposes an illegal group no matter how peaceful, someone can be hurt, but I recall many a sit-down protest in the UK where nobody was, apart from the odd policeman with a strained back from lifting the dead weight of dozens of sitting students. In the UK, as in my own country of Canada, every victim is counted and the cost is calculated and the question is always asked, could we have handled this better?

Turning to Thailand; you say "these people are Budhists ,causing death or hurt to another is unthinkable"

- in Thailand you have yellow shirts and red shirts. In Europe there were once Black Shirts and Brown Shirts; they were much admired by some at the time but it lead to the 2nd World War and the Holocaust. You have (or had) a government with a prime minister who was trying to govern from a remote location far from the capital from fear for his own safety.

You had 100,000's of tourists held against their will as the planes that could have taken them home were sent away empty. These people were hostages no matter what spin you try to put on it; the majority of the anti-government protesters may have been peaceful Buddhists but there is no way to guarantee the lives of every one of those trusting visitors to your country and if so much as one dies, who shall be held responsible? Your (former) government? The police? Or shall we blame the tourists for being rich foreigners?

Was there a need for all this in the first place? The matter under protest was before a legally constituted court, today that court ruled to disband the ruling political party, a victory for peacful justice if ever there was one. Will you argue that the court acted under duress? If so, how can you argue that its ruling was just, and will the government not use precisely the same argument to try to remain illegally in power?

Hopefully all those tourists will escape with their lives. The effect of those days of fear and privation on the sick, elderly and nervous? Who knows. I care, do you? The future effect on Thailand? Perhaps you can tell me. I do not think you have a win-win situation there.

All that being said, there is no comparing the situation in Thailand, where thousands of innocent people were at risk but should soon be safe, with that in India, where the foolishness and ignorance of youth was sacrificed and more than a hundred people died for some manipulative old men and their foul "cause."

[masalai]

millionswords is that plural "...words", - - or - - singular "...swords" ? I like playing with words....

Further info on those terrible events would be appreciated - My wife, from Nagercoil, does not want to know, (far too sad) - - I was intending to cruise Kerala and up to Goa etc, but I guess Lovely Lady will veto that option....

Do you know anyone after a block of land near the Hebbal Flyover on N side of Bangalore?

[Frosty]

Kayaker,--I have not ever tried to suggest that the airport seige in Thailand was in any way similar to the terrorist attack in India. I was pointing out the two different religions and therefore a different level of violence.

The tourists of Thailand where hostages? Have you been to Thailand? your should be aware that there are many airports left working which could have within an hour got you to Langkawi , Pinang, Singapore Phnom pen etc

Air Asia has incredibly cheap flights,-- can be cheaper than the bus.

Or a train to Kula Lumpur, Singapore , not to mention the hundreds of buses that go to the same places.

Only those wanting to claim on insurance needed to complain.

Actually most of them went back to the Hotel and enjoyed there extended holiday as the government assisted in hotel costs and waved immigration laws.

How nice is that?

Finally, you are trying to apply logic to Thai politics? Thia politics is for Thai politicians, Just sit in the deck chair and have another beer.