Ok, Now What...?

[Portager]

OK, here is my next submission for the dart board. I went back to my original concept and raised the floor of the cabin to accommodate fuel and water storage balanced around the longitudinal CG.

I shortened the length to 31' because most trailers have a break point at 31'. I looked at reducing the length further, but according to Dave Gerr's book, "The Nature of Boats" O1 is better off with a higher length to beam ratio. Dave shows that the higher length/beam will allow it to go faster with a given power level and the longer length will provide better sea keeping.

The helm seat has a drop bottom to allow the pilot to either sit or stand. The forward seat of the booth on the port side slides fore and aft and the backrest reverses to allow the passenger to face forward or aft.

There is a ten inch wide side deck on the starboard side. On the port side the head extends to the full beam to maximize head room. A large galley is provided aft of the helm.

There is a wet locker at the front of the cockpit on the port side and a propane locker on the starboard side. This locker accommodates a Worthington 6 lb propane tank that is 6" in diameter and 22" long http://www.worthingtoncylinders.com/aluminum.html .

The outboard well is laid out to scale to accommodate a large outboard and an auxiliary. The main engine is on centerline and the auxiliary is on the port side leaving room on the starboard side for a transom gate and a small boarding platform. The forward end of the outboard well is closed off and a removable cover over the engines minimizes noise in the cockpit and cabin.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

[8knots]

Hey there Mike I like her. I like what you did to the bow in plan view. I to read a lot of Gerr as a matter of fact Just this morning while drawing the 2 hour My wife while playing catch with our 3 year old Irish Setter managed to knock over my cup of coffee on my copy of “The nature of boats” I was studying the Sea brights and I have always been into the idea of building the “H.M.POPE IIII” As you know I am a slow boat guy like yourself but There IS something to tooling around with 1600hp under the floor!!!!!! Maybe after a few decades of overtime I could afford the fuel bill. But I will say if a guy were to have a pair of these up here he would own the 6-pack charter business. 8Kts

[Portager]

Originally posted by 8knots
Hey there Mike I like her. I like what you did to the bow in plan view.

Thanks, I am sure someone will complain about the windage of the high bow, but I like the high freeboard. It looks like it could plow through some rough water if you needed to.

I to read a lot of Gerr as a matter of fact Just this morning while drawing the 2 hour My wife while playing catch with our 3 year old Irish Setter managed to knock over my cup of coffee on my copy of “The nature of boats” I was studying the Sea brights and I have always been into the idea of building the “H.M.POPE IIII” As you know I am a slow boat guy like yourself but There IS something to tooling around with 1600hp under the floor!!!!!! Maybe after a few decades of overtime I could afford the fuel bill. But I will say if a guy were to have a pair of these up here he would own the 6-pack charter business. 8Kts

Your right about the 6-pack charter business. One H.M.Pope III would change that world overnight. Imagine a 42'9" (13m) sports fisher capable of cruising at 30 to 45 knots. I'd like to do a patrol boat version of H.M. Pope III and change the drives to surface drives. H.M. Pope weight 19,500 versus our Phantom Boat at 18,000. HP is the same but the Phantom is 40' long without the swim step and has a 12' beam. Even though Phantom has surface drives and H.M. Pope III has inboards (much less efficient at 35 to 40 knots) Phantom can only do 45 knots max versus H.M. Pope III's 55 knots. The reason is the L/B ratio of Phantom is 3.3 compared to H.M. Pope III's 4.2. H.M. Pope III power efficiency is 0.21 lbs/HP/knot and Phantoms is 0.25. The higher L/B of H.M. Pope is more than making up for the propulsion efficiency advantage of the surface drives on Phantom. Now how fast would H.M. Pope be with surface drives? I think 60 to 70 knots is possible.

For my high speed short range cruiser, I'd go with "Needle Senior". LOA 55', DWL 49' 4", beam 8', displacement 9,000 lbs. It will cruise at 35 knots on 300 HP and with her 55' length it would slice through chop much better than a shorter boats. I'd change the open cockpit to an enclosed Pilothouse and change the jet drive to a surface drive. With an 8' beam Needle Senior would meet the trailerable width requirement but would exceed the allowable length in most states. I'd design a gooseneck trailer and extend the bow up over the neck to minimize the trailer length.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

[8knots]

Why get rid of the jets? A small loss in speed will be paid for with intact fish and loss of tackle in those surface drives! My opinion (admittedly inexperienced) Is that surface drives have no place on a family or commercial charter boat. There is just too much potential hazard there. Granted, a reasonable skipper would have no problem with safety.
Anyway that is just my opinion. I have somewhere the lines for a patrol boat built for the Cuban coast guard 60’LOA or so built in ply and covered with FRP seems to me she was speedy with modest power. I will dig her up just for fun. 8Kts

[8knots]

Sorry I will post those pics over in the gallery so as not to clutter this thread. 8Kts

[Portager]

I went back and reviewed my propulsion efficiency graphs. It turns out that Jets are generally considered to be more efficient than surface drives until 40 to 45 mph. Therefore, for Needle Senior, which cruises at 35 knots, your right, it would be better to stay with the water jet.

I have a hard time seeing myself fishing off Needle Senior. The last 8' is all engine room with a flush deck.

The boat that my employer owns and most of the boats I work on have surface drives. They all have swim platforms extending aft of the props. This makes for a large swim platform, but effectively eliminated the risk of injury and fish/tackle damage.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

[Willallison]

Well, with the weekend came the opportunity for me to sharpen up a few more darts - and now two more targets!

8knots -

The spilt galley is an interesting idea - though it seems terribly short on bench space. You could maybe have the backrest of the helm seat fold down to create additional bench.....

With so much rake to the stem and because the double berth requires a fair amount of width at the fwd end, you have been forced to have a fairly large anchor locker - a more vertical bow would assist to a certain extent. It also results in making the head look too small.

I don't know how carefully you've drawn your underwater shape, but as you currently have it, the deadrise increases towards the transom - not a happy state of affairs.

The cabin roof over the helm / galley area is too short - people going fwd to the front cabin, or aft to the salon will bump their heads

Other than that it is an interesting twist on the raised pilothouse concept.

Mike -

Hiding the outboards is probably a good way to go if you're after a more traditional appearence and should result in a substantial reduction in noise levels. It'd also make a nice spot to sit. Your cockpit though, is now shortened to 5 1/2 ft, which is only marginally more than my 'extended cab' - not necessarily too small, but worth hurling a dart in your butt's general direction nonetheless

The galley is huge, but the dinette, I think, is too small. The boat would sleep 3, but only seat 2. For O-1 to be successful, I think we must incorporate plenty of 'lounging' space - how many 31ft boats do you see where only 2 people can sit down (excluding helm)?

I don't have too much problem with your high bow - it would create headroom up fwd. Though it might adversely effect vision from the helm and would make the fordeck ladder from the v-berth a long, steep climb.


As far as the weight goes you're right - I goofed on the calculation. I was thinking 1800kg at half load - so around 2000kg fully loaded, 1600kg light.

[Willallison]

Thank heavens we are hurling darts at one another & not the boats - they'd be so full of holes none of them would float......

This is my "if you can't beat 'em" concept. It runs with the 'head up' layout favoured by Tom and Mike. I'm still not convinced that this is the best approach, given the compromises that must be made to sightlines and the feeling of openness, but anyway....

I've extended the cabin roof forward to the point that it will provide full headroom to the head of the berths, which are open to the salon, increasing the feeling of space. A three-sectioned windscreen will allow for the centre section to swing up, creating access to the bow similar to that in my previous proposals. There is storage / hanging lockers aft of each berth. A double helm to stbd, the backrest flips fwd to create additional seating at the dinette which is just aft of it. Opposite is a lounge and a section of this creates further dining space with a leaf on the dining table. The head is aft with the galley opposite. A large cockpit and what we call a 1/2 pod for the outboards (part of the outboard well intrudes into the cockpit but most is 'stuck out the back') and a boarding platform with transom gate. There is a seat running down the port side of the cockpit, creating extra storage and easier side deck access.

You guys must surely have blunted your dart tips by now - pretty soon they'll just start bouncing off - give it your best shot...

[Portager]

Will;

I hate to say this but I think our designs are converging. Other than cosmetic differences, our designs are not that far apart.

Maybe I'm overly paranoid, but I don't like having windows too far forward. I get concerned about green water coming over the bow.

I'm not too fond of seats facing inboard. When the going gets rough its a full time job just holding on and I get a stiff neck trying to look forward all the time.

Here is my latest revision. I shortened the galley and added a bench on the starboard side behind the helm. By sliding the helm forward and reversing the backrest you get a second booth and a forth berth.

I have extended the deckhouse on the port side and widened the port side booth. There is a side deck on the starboard side, so why do I really need one on the port side?

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

[Willallison]

Hah! Step ahead of you there Mike - knew you old fella's would prefer something a bit more traditional......

The sheerline needs a bit of work - too straight and needs to sweep up to the bow more....

The short foredeck could be a bit of a problem - in the first one it is about 1.75m to the base of the screen (in the trad one it is 2m). Your boat has 2.75m. but in order to get headroom and foredeck access it was necessary. It could probably come back another 0.25 or so without too much problem.

As far as the ideas converging - don't get your hopes up just yet - I still think the head should be up forward where it doesn't interfere with the sightlines....

One quick thought on the curved nature of your bow shape - don't know how that would go from a developability point of view.... It would either be very blunt, or need to incorporate considerable flair, which would be difficult to build with flat panels...

[Portager]

Will;

Who you calling old! Just because I like retro style boats doesn't make me old. I used to like sleek looking go fast boats too, but then I grew up.

I understand the headroom aspect of moving the windshield forward. It is a cleaver idea, but ...

You can have the head forward if you like. The raised pilothouse works good for that, but you will need more beam to keep the smooth side down.

I don't have much experience with developable surfaces, so I'll take your word for it. Although it seams a little counter intuitive.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

[Willallison]

LOL Sorry couldn't help myself - I find that the darts fly truer if they are attached to a personal insult or two!!

[Portager]

I think we should try and list the things that we agree on for example length, maximum height, head room, stand up shower?, seats and bunks, ... Maybe we can start to converge a little faster that way.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

[Willallison]

Sounds reasonable - though I suspect it might be easier to list those things on which we all differ, so we can come to a compromise position on them. Looking down the following list (of things that I consider important) you'll see the we (at least Mike and I) would agree on most of them - and most of the sketches we've put forward satisfy most of the points - there's way more than a dozen ways to skin a cat......

However, for what its worth here's my list - from bow to stern:

Anchor
Bowsprit
provision for winch
safe foredeck access

Cabin
2 x permanent berths, storage under
sufficient storage for clothes etc for 1 week
standing headroom @ head of berth (1.75m min)

Head
Fulle enclosed separate head with basin, wc and shower
standing headroom (1.75m min)

Galley
sink, 2-burner cooktop, fridge (freezer?)
plenty of storage
reasonable amount of bench space
easy access to both dining table and cockpit

Helm
Sitting and standing positions (stand up with head out roof?)
Min 2 people facing fwd (double helm seat preferable)
Good sightlines to all areas of boat a priority

Main Salon
Full standing headroom (1.9m min)
Comfortable dining / lounge area for 4 minimum
able to see out whilst seated

Cockpit
Sufficient rope / fender storage
easy side-deck and boarding platform access
large enough tha 2 crew can fish etc
seating of some sort - even if just on wide cap-rail

Others
wet locker for oilskins etc
provision for tender storageprovision for auxhillary o/b
ability to place fuel / water etc in best place for CG / CB

I'm sure there's more - but it's a start....

[Willallison]

...and just to add a little more confusion, here's yet another dart target - a trawler style O-1