Metric vs Imperial poll

[Luckless]

Originally Posted by murdomack

Taking the two dimensions above in Ft & Ins we would get 17ft 2-9/64ins and 17 ft 5-11/16ins respectively. It's not impossible to make mistakes in Imperial, I've made a few myself, but you must admit it is a lot harder.

Wait, just how is it any harder to make mistakes in Imperial? I couldn't tell you the number of times someone has called out a measurement to me on a job site, reading 16'5" + 3/16th, and giving me 16'3" + 5/16th. Not to mention the easy errors in adding up fractions.

Yes, if you try to convert drawings from Imperial to Metric for your crews to build with, you're going to have problems. If your crew works in Metric, then the designs should have started in Metric in the first place. Didn't you say you reduced error after teaching your crews proper methods for working in metric?

As a Canadian born in the mid 80s, I'm well versed in both systems, but greatly prefer metric.

The only advantage I find to Canada still making use of Imperial in construction is that it can be great fun to steal someone's measuring tape and replace it with a metric one. Keeps the old guys on their toes. Even better when you get time before the project starts to get the architect to run you off extra copies of plans with metric notation.

[murdomack]

Luckless,

You should never pass information by word of mouth, there are courses that you can attend that demonstrate how this invariably leads to errors.

I said that I reduced error by teaching the local workforce to use Imperial methods if that was what was on the original drawings.

I'll bet that these old timers that you laugh at could lay out a 22-1/2 Deg angle without any calculator or even a square, but I would be amazed if you could. Imperial has ways of letting you do things straight from your brain to the table.

Fanie,

People who are up to speed with the Imperial system will tell you that it is faster than Metric. Being able to instantly convert fractions to decimals in your head allows you to use calculators just as easily as in the Metric system. The Metric system is a lazy system in that you require to know less.

When the monetary system in the UK was Pounds, Shillings and Pence you could ask a bus conductress for six different tickets, some single, some retuns and she would give you the total cost as soon as you stopped speaking. Today they need a machine to work it out in decimal currency, and tell what the individual fares are. I hardly call that progress, but it's where the Metric system has led us.

[ancient kayaker]

Originally Posted by Fanie

... I see many of the US guys are beginning to use metric measurements which seems logical if the rest of the world is already there. Rather stupid to go on in one standard if your customer uses another ...

Actually changing units is not much of a problem in this largely computerized world, it's just a touch of a mouse button away. It allows us dinosaurs to think in our favorite units and send the customer something they can comprehend. Only problem, I can't find software that will convert to cubits.

[Luckless]

Originally Posted by murdomack

Luckless,

You should never pass information by word of mouth, there are courses that you can attend that demonstrate how this invariably leads to errors.

Anytime you make a reading, or record a reading, or read a recorded reading, you will eventually make an error. Call-Reply-Confirm-Acknowledge is only going to get you the wrong number if the guy sending out the reading has read it wrong to begin with.

There are many times in construction when it simply isn't safe for one person to take a measurement and record it themselves, and I couldn't tell you how many times I've watched one of those vaunted 'old timers' climb up a ladder to get a measurement, climb back down to make a cut, then climb back up only to find out they were off by 1/16th.

The only time I laugh at them is when they refuse to accept that maybe metric is just as usable as imperial and just how mad a few of them seem to get when someone suggests anything to do with metric. And as for "doing it straight in your head", you want to talk about something prone to error? I'll never understand some people's insistence on how if you can get something done with fewer tools, it Must be better. Having done flint napping and bog iron smelting I tend to laugh at such ideas. They can free to go on working with just one or two tools, and I'll be happy with using newer and more accurate tools when they're suitable, and making use of the same old tools they do when they're better suited.

[Boston]

well it sure screwed up the NASA boys on one of there Mars missions
a few hundred million in metal ended up a smoldering wreck in its own personal crater

[ancient kayaker]

Then there's the plane that ran out of fuel and had to glide in for an emergency landing because the pilot and the fueler got their units mixed up.

I was always taught, measure twice and cut once. If it's really important getting two people to measure seems a sensible precaution. I used to get my calculations checked for really important stuff, someone's life seemed more important than my pride.

Reminds me of a big industrial robot that we were designing way back: the structural guy reported that it would sag like boiled spagetti with the projected load. The mechanical team were well into a total redesign when I wandered up. My reaction on being told the news was, it's built like a crane and should act like one, no crane would bend that far under that load.

As the electrical guy I didn't get much respect in that department and nobody had time to talk so I glanced at the guys calculation and he had a value for Young's modulus for steel about 10 times too low. I saved them weeks of work, thousands in costs and a hell of a lot of embarrassment but never got a thank you.

[Boston]

welcome to the world of business
when I started building windows I worked for a company that was run like a fine watch
every one checked everyone's work in a system of checks and balances that was stellar in both its simplicity and its effectiveness
then I went out on my own and carried that principal with me into my own biz
worked like a charm
and many years later
when biz began dying out I began consulting again at a glass plant that wanted to begin manufacturing windows for there glass
I never realized that either collectively or individually you could have such a group of screw ups actually manage to feed themselves let alone hand anyone a window
no checks and balances
no paperwork of who does what
no system of any kind to keep one hand informed of what the other is doing
it was a miracle of stupidity
I quit in disgust after I predicted every screw up that occurred over the course of an out of town job that I was placed in charge of
the trucking company took a week and a half to deliver the materials
stuff arrived same day I was supposed to leave
even though I called four or five times as I drove the route the trucks were supposed to take and told em they needed to take the other way round as this snow storm was bound to close the roads behind me
bla bla bla
every thing that went wrong
was fully predictable
the girl who was in charge of sizing and ordering the glass
who screwed up a solid 1/3 of every piece she touched
got the glass wrong on the one out of town job she did for me
I ended up waiting a week and a half only to end up getting the wrong size glass
and when I handed em the bill back at the office
they looked at me like what
you didnt do any work

it doesn't take a genius to develop and work within a system of checks and balances
its just common sense

oh
I hear those clowns at the glass plant are still looking for someone to do there off site work

[Landlubber]

Murdo mack,

"The Metric system is a lazy system in that you require to know less."

I rest my case your honour, precisely why Metric is better.......

[murdomack]

Originally Posted by Landlubber

Murdo mack,

"The Metric system is a lazy system in that you require to know less."

I rest my case your honour, precisely why Metric is better.......

How on earth is knowing less better?

The old timers used to say to me as an apprentice, "You have to learn all the tricks of the trade, know everything in your head, one day you might be out in the desert or in the jungle, you can't draw anything down like in the shop, that's when your knowledge will get you through." We boys all used to laugh at the time, but a lot of it came true and what they taught us gained us much respect. Even today, with access to information via the web available practically at any spot on earth, it is the guys who can look at the job and spot the problems at an early stage that are in demand when time is money.

I've got nothing against the Metric system, I use it every day, but it is not as good as the Imperial system when it comes to learning and storing information in your brain. I like working with the American ANSI system, it's far superior for my kind of work at least.

[peter radclyffe]

Originally Posted by Luckless

Wait, just how is it any harder to make mistakes in Imperial? I couldn't tell you the number of times someone has called out a measurement to me on a job site, reading 16'5" + 3/16th, and giving me 16'3" + 5/16th. Not to mention the easy errors in adding up fractions.

Yes, if you try to convert drawings from Imperial to Metric for your crews to build with, you're going to have problems. If your crew works in Metric, then the designs should have started in Metric in the first place. Didn't you say you reduced error after teaching your crews proper methods for working in metric?

As a Canadian born in the mid 80s, I'm well versed in both systems, but greatly prefer metric.

The only advantage I find to Canada still making use of Imperial in construction is that it can be great fun to steal someone's measuring tape and replace it with a metric one. Keeps the old guys on their toes. Even better when you get time before the project starts to get the architect to run you off extra copies of plans with metric notation.

AND YOU WONDER WHY YOU HAVE NO LUCK WITH YOUR TROUBLEMAKING ATTITUDE

[murdomack]

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

I can't find software that will convert to cubits.

There are a few on the web, but make your own in Excel. The biggest problem is which Cubit to choose

[Fanie]

Murdomack, "How on earth is knowing less better? "

It is not a matter of knowing less It seems that way because it is so easy to use, logical for humans if you want.

My work is to use processors on a component level. The use of metrics wrt the dimentions of the actual hardware is greatly simplified.

Computers, no matter however advanced they will become always work in the binary format, which is a bit like the male brain, either a 1 or a 0

In the software the use of hex (count to 8, 16, 24, 64, 128 or whatever) to point to a 'word' of information is simplified by simply using the value in decimal, not in hex. So you would use the value 10 decimal instead of A hex. The same is applied to any of the numeric systems.

I know there are people that can read the hieroglyphics fluently, but it is a more complicated thing than using text as we know it today. Compare the Chinese alphabet with ours. The same kind of difference exist between the metric system and the others.

Don't know if the Chinese will come over to our alphabeth tho

[Fanie]

Hi Peter Radclyffe,

I fail to see how Luckless deserved the comment "AND YOU WONDER WHY YOU HAVE NO LUCK WITH YOUR TROUBLEMAKING ATTITUDE"

I fully agree with what he said, and find nothing offensive or negative in it. I'm sure you must have misunderstood what he was saying.

[Fanie]

He he...

It is not a matter of knowing less It seems that way because it is so easy to use, logical for humans if you want.

Actually it's a matter of knowing more - once you know the metric system works better, it is one more thing you know

[peter radclyffe]

Originally Posted by Fanie

Hi Peter Radclyffe,

I fail to see how Luckless deserved the comment "AND YOU WONDER WHY YOU HAVE NO LUCK WITH YOUR TROUBLEMAKING ATTITUDE"

I fully agree with what he said, and find nothing offensive or negative in it. I'm sure you must have misunderstood what he was saying.

if someone replaced your tape, & caused you to almost make a several thousand dollar mistake, would you find that funny