If the members of this forum....

[Stephen Ditmore]

That last link should be:
http://www.modelships.co.uk/Models/H..._surprise.html

[Stephen Ditmore]

Hey 8 (or anyone else). If you go to Tad's web site and click on "Sailboats" (assuming you can bring yourself), then click on "Sail 26" on the left you'll see a boat that I like a lot... but I'd see shortening the rig and making the masts fold, getting rid of the shrouds, getting rid of the fin keel, and making the pilothouse a little higher - making it a motorsailer with more emphasis on motor.

Any objection, Tad, to our being influenced by your work? Can we consider this your contribution?

[tom28571]

I got lost and did not look at any posts on the subject until now as I thought we were just deciding what to do as a result of the poll.

I like the idea of the cruising powerboat since that is what I have been interested in lately. My own boat is shown in the powerboat section under the Ultra lightweight powerboats thread. If we are talking about a displacement or semi-displacement boat, mine will not fit the bill although it is capable of cruising in the planing mode at any speed from about 9mph to 22mph. I did consider putting in some variable water ballast. That would allow a deeper V in the hull than the current 10 degrees of the aft monohedron section. One problem with this approach is that in order to have good (safe) running stability, the chines must remain well immersed or the thing will chine walk or some other bad thing.

What is gained is possible better heavy weather handling and comfort. The increased draft and lower performance requiring greater power seemed to be to big a price to pay.

One major consideration is the decision on maximum trailering weight if the boat is to be trailed. That will determine the limits on many aspect of the design.

Stephen, I like your ideas but I dislike motor sailors, especially ones with an emphasis on the motor. They seem to have the bad attributes of both without the good stuff.

[Stephen Ditmore]

O.K., I won't get too attached if someone wants to take this in a different direction. I like what I've seen of 8Knots' work, and Tad's, and your boat for that matter. I'd love to see something similar with an 8' to 8'-6" beam and a reasonable trailering weight that can be used year-round. Guess I'll just have to stick a mast on it myself.

-S

[Polarity]

....4 days to go with the voting...

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Re the trailerable sailing power boat I assume you have all seen the Mc Gregor 26 ? http://www.macgregor26.com/index.html

LENGTH: 25' 10"
24 MILES PER HOUR UNDER POWER
WEIGHT EMPTY: 2350 LBS
SLEEPS 6. ONE BERTH IS KING SIZE
WALK THROUGH TRANSOM
BUILT IN SAFETY FLOTATION
UNDER 8’ WIDE FOR LEGAL TRAILERING
TOW WITH STANDARD CARS
ALL FIBERGLASS CONSTRUCTION
FLOATS IN 9" OF WAER
LAUNCH AND RIG IN 10 MINUTES
WATER BALLAST SYSTEM: 1500 LBS
STORAGE FOR TWO 9 GALLON FUEL TANKS ..

----------

...this is going to be fun....

Paul

[Stephen Ditmore]

Si senor. A floating clorox bottle if ever there was one. Cockpit shallow & high, must be a little scary at full speed. I'd want more shelter in the winter, and in terms of styling I know we can do much, much better. The performance parameters and size are about right, though, as you point out.

[Polarity]

...Guys and girls.

Ahhhh yes I did not say it was pretty!

I love the description " a floating clorox bottle!" (that's bleach for those of you that don't speak American!)


Paul

HEY I just got promoted.. I feel old now.!

A floating clorox bottle if ever there was one

ROTFL

And this is a really great idea. I just wish I had time to get involved this month. What will be the final reslut? It will be interesting to watch this develop.

[tom28571]

Yes, there are a lot of those Mac 25's around. Someone must like them. No close friends of mine, I hope. Most that I have seen are powered with a 50hp outboard although I did see one with a big 70 stuck on the back end (they would not call it a transom). I doubt the 24mph claim though.

The moderator of the Trailer Sailor Forum had one for a while and wrote a review of it (it's still there I think). Not too flattering. He considered the construction as good as the looks. Dorox bottle! That's a good description and I don't even know what it is.

[Stephen Ditmore]

On subject of motorsailers, here's a famous one, Blue Leopard by Laurent Giles.
http://www.model-dockyard.com/deans/blue-leopard.htm
http://www.nyyc.org/AA_HTML_NEW/EntrantsTAC.html
http://www.laurentgiles.co.uk/
That's what I'm thinking - a baby Blue Leopard - but a powerboat'd be O.K too as long as it has style. I still like Tad's 26' sailboat. Whatever it is, it should have that certain something.... should be able to wear a name like "Little Blue Leopard" proudly.

On another subject, I wonder if a boat like Blue Leopard could be built origami style? How 'bout an origami Bluenose Schooner, or an origami Etchells?

[Tad]

Lookout, Stephen is on a roll!


By all means use the 26' for a starting point. Every boat is based on some other boat. One of the reasons for the website is to illustrate that we can create boats of modern form, construction, and performance with a traditional feel. I can admire the performance of the MacGregor 26 but to me it is not a boat, it's a throwaway consumer product.

But Stephen; once you make your changes to the 26' (sensible as they are) you have something else, certainly not my boat. Will it still have that certain something? Perhaps, but it may resemble a collection of parts.

What makes Blue Leopard awesome is her proportions, those fantastic overhangs and the perfectly proportioned deckhouse. Also her clean simplicity, but I'm afraid a 26' Blue Leopard would be impractical, her waterline would be about 17.5'. Scaling big boats down is hard work!

On origami boat construction; yes, long skinny hulls would be ideal for the method. You would want to use aluminum for the light displacement hulls like Blue Leopard or the Etchells. The key is gradual increases in the girth measurements. But every steel origami hull I've seen had an ugly pucker where the pleat ended up forward. This is partly poor welding practice, but it would help if the beam was less and the hull finer lined.

All the best, Tad

[tom28571]

My thoughts are the same as yours Tad. Taking the Blue Leopard down to 26' would result in a cabin that you might be able to crawl through. Lots of compromises have to be made in order to make a boat do what we are talking about and still be pretty. It's hard and few have been able to pull it off.

At some point, we should stop looking at end product and think about the objectives that we want to satisfy with this boat. Being trained as an engineer, that is the way I like to approach a design. That is: how big, how much headroom and where: how heavy, what speed range, how much power, trailerable or not, economy of operation, operating area, cruising comfort provisions and other requirements that will show up.

For instance, I have no problem with 26' as a starting point, but can a good boat built to this size still be readily trailerable? Not merely moveable, but realistically trailerable over large distances by the average boatman with an average vehicle? If we assume that we have a pickup waiting in the driveway with a Cummins Diesel or magnum engine, no problem.

If we can decide on some of these parameters, it will keep us from introducing extraneous solutions that have no hope of meeting the fixed required parameters. As you know, even these have to be compromised sometimes since some of the original goals are likely to be incompatible with each other.

It's a lot easier and more satisfying to add a bit of size than to take some away. Sure has been for me in a different area.

Tom

[duluthboats]

Wow! this has been a surprise. I was almost certain that the stick and rag guys would run away with this poll. Over on WB forum I,m one of the few stinkpots.
Tom I agree if it is going to be trailerable, that will affect the design bigtime. That might have to be the subject of the next poll.
Gary

[Stephen Ditmore]

O.K., guys, now you're attributing things to me I never said. Never did I propose literally scaling down Blue Leopard, though on the subject of hard work I'm in the middle of working very hard to develop decent similitude equations at
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthr...p?threadid=327
and informed dialogue on that subject would be appreciated.
Also, please note that a design has been proposed at
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthr...p?threadid=456
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But Stephen; once you make your changes to the 26' (sensible as they are) you have something else, certainly not my boat. Will it still have that certain something? Perhaps, but it may resemble a collection of parts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, that's a danger, but so far at "the one hour sketch" thread I think we're off to a good start.

I hope you don't mind a little spirited debate. Cheers, all,
Stephen

[Tad]

It looks like the boat will be designed before the first results are in! Maybe the polls will have to be shortened.

See my comments in the one hour sketch thread.

All the best, Tad