can we start drawing yet...?

[tom28571]

It's all about choices Mike. The volume and cruising amenities of Bluejacket and the Surf Scoter 25 are very much alike. Where they differ most is in weight and cost. Few believe me when I say that I built and launched "Liz" for $15,300 including the expensive four stroke and a new tandem axle aluminum trailer but I have the records to prove it. The Scoter 25 would set you back at least $80,000 - plus power and trailer. Total would probably be over $100,000. That is just out of my league and out of the league of most who would undertake to build their own.

Yeah, I agree that the Scoter would be more comfortable in rough seas and Sam builds a fine boat so there is no complaint on that score. Another thing is the trailing weight, which would be at or over 6,000lbs. That would require the purchase of a special costly vehicle that I have no other use for. I tow my 3,000lb package with a GMC V6 Safari that is our primary vehicle.

This past weekend I made a 120 mile trip on the local sounds and ICW with the first 30 miles into a fairly stiff northeaster. Yes, it was a bit rough but not unbearable and the other boats, all heavier and deeper hulls, faired somewhat better but not a whole lot. No one was real comfortable until we turned the corner into more protected water.

If I did not favor the trailerable aspect so much, I might be inclined toward more displacement and size. But, as I said, it's all about personal choices and compromises. We can get to our chosen cruising grounds fast and spend less time in the boat, so the lack of what, to some might be essential features, are not such a big deal to us.

[Polarity]

Ahh yes, despite my ravings "cheap" was not a word I used! They do however last at least a lifetime. I don't have hot water installed, but I could see that basically all that was required was a copper coil wound around the heater. i think I am more of a fan of the fuel than of specifically that manufacturer. I like the fact that I could pull up to a barge in Holland and for 20$ buy enough fuel for cooking and heating for a couple of months! You can even use Av-gas if you have a good supply...

Cheers Paul

[duluthboats]

“The Scoter 25 would set you back at least $80,000 - plus power and trailer. Total would probably be over $100,000.”
Tom Lathrop

Tom, Sam will build you a Surf Scoter for $50K. All you add is a motor. For the home builder the outlay would be less than $12K before the motor. Plywood, glass, and resin aren’t all that expensive. The labor is what gets you.

Gary

[Portager]

Tom;

I didn't intend to insult you or Liz/BlueJacket. I was just pointing out that the Surf Scoter 25 sounds more like the type of boat I want/need.

You are correct that the cost would be higher and I could not tow it with my 2002 Bravada OTOH where I live in Southern California there are very few sheltered areas. As soon as you leave the harbor you are in the Pacific Ocean. We don't have an ICW and the fishing and diving gets better the further out you go.

I know the Surf Scoter 25 would cost more, but a boat isn't much good if I can't use it or if it won't get me where I want to go.

Polarity;

So when you said it was cheap you were talking about the fuel, but not the stove and heater? If the cost of the alternative is equal to or more than a good diesel stove, I'll choose diesel. The fuel is available at nearly all fuel docks and the combustion is totally contained and vented outside. Even clean burning fuels consume oxygen and can cause oxygen deprivation.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

[tom28571]

>Gary said, Tom, Sam will build you a Surf Scoter for $50K. All you add is a motor. For the home builder the outlay would be less than $12K before the motor. Plywood, glass, and resin aren’t all that expensive. The labor is what gets you. <


Gary,

Take a look at Devlin's website.

http://www.devlinboat.com/dcfp.htm

The 22 lists for $46,000 w/o power or trailer. The 27 lists for $103,000 in the same configuration. No price is listed for the 25, so I just interpolated but I'll bet that I'm pretty close on the estimate.

I know about the hours, having put in a lot of them.

I'm a fan of Sam's boats and would have a Topknot if I won the lottery. People often ask if my boat is a Surf Scoter and I take that as a complement.

[tom28571]

Mike, I took no offense. We must be able to challenge each other's ideas or opinions or we will never get anywhere. It's part of the deal.

I completely agree that if a boat is to satisfy the user, the design must take the intended conditions and intended use seriously. One thing that I notice is that most people think their local conditions are tougher than most others. I live near three of the most dangerous capes in the US so bad water is a fact of life.

Still, I chose to go for a boat not intended to challenge these bad boys. If I intended to run to Catalina there or out to the Gulf Stream here on a regular basis, you can bet I would want a more sea kindly hull. I'm pretty sure which one of those is the tougher trip too. The lack of inshore cruising in Southern California and it's relative abundance on the east coast here makes our choices potentially different.

[duluthboats]

Tom
My point was that to compare the Scooter to LIZ in cost you have to figure what it would cost you to build a Scooter. Not the cost to buy one from Sam.
Gary

[Willallison]

Ok, so here are a few pics of "Incentive", my 27ft Searay. These show how I've altered the covers to make the cockpit a far more pleasant environment. Previously the covers were dark blue and had very little in the way of 'clears'. I show this as an example of the way that I envision O-1 as the soft-top option.
From the rear view, you can see that I simply zip open the rear 'door' to gain access from the back. All the side covers can be rolled up for easy access to the side decks. And of course all the various parts can be individually removed altogether. I'm currently playing around with some very lightweight (parachute type material) curtains which can be put up inside. They will be velcroed in place and will help to preserve the interior from the sun.

I've loaded the pics into the gallery:
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...er=124&thumb=1

[tom28571]

Gary,

As Cool Hand Luke's chain gang boss would say "What we have here is a failure to communicate." Yeah, I probably should have said that more clearly, but thought the difference in cost basis was obvious.

We might have taken something like Sam's Black crown 27 as a starting point but am not sure how he would feel about that. The Black Crown is just a big Scoter. It's not a scooter, by the way, a surf scoter is a sea duck. Liz is a birdwatcher and keeps me straight on that stuff.

Will,

I can see how your boat gets warm in cold sunny weather. I've traveled the ICW in winter with and without such a cover on sailboats and can really appreciate your setup. Comfort and misery are separated by such a rig. I'm working on a 20 ft version of the Bluejacket and will use such a cover on one option. I am toying with using an arch over the aft end of the convertible top so that the top folds aft against this instead of forward over the windshield as is normally done. The aft curtain wall would attach to the arch also. What does anyone think of this idea and has anyone seen it before?

[Willallison]

Tom,
Really need a sketch to be certain about what you are suggesting. The 'roof' of my covers zip apart about 1/2 way back. The rear section folds and rolls around a hoop support at the rear. This works well as it enables us to completely uncover the aft section of the cockpit if we want to. One thing I would suggest, is to ensure that you have full standing headroom under the covers - had to raise mine by a couple of inches to achieve this. Otherwise, even with the covers rolled back, you will be forever banging your head on the 'hoop'.
You're right about the difference decent covers can make - the changes I made (from dark blue to white, slightly higher, and more 'clears) have completely transformed how we use the boat. We virtually live in the cockpit now, as regardless of weather it provides a pleasant environment.

[Willallison]

Thinking more about your idea Tom, I think you are suggesting something a hardtop with a sort of large fabric sunroof and roll up covers in place of the rear cabin bulkhead.
If so, I think it's an excellent idea. Reminiscent of the big Sunseekers and Pershings etc out of Europe.
The only downside, is that you lose the security of a lock up cabin, which may or may not matter....

[tom28571]

Will, Here is a simple sketch of what I was working on a couple of years ago before I decided on a fixed pilothouse. I'm now looking at it again for the 20 ft model. I guess you could call it a roll bar except that sounds kind of stupid. Anyway, it forms a very stable rig to secure the opened convertible top and hang the aft curtain wall from.

Since I would have a self draining cockpit thhat would step down at just forward of the curtain wall, it would definitely be possible to bonk your head going forward but I'm willing to put up with that to get standing headroom under the top and keep it lower.

Maybe Hinckley will want to sue me over the sweeping curve of the side wall.

[Willallison]

.....more 'traditional' in appearance. but otherwise very similar to the soft-top option I put forward for O-1.
Two suggestions. The first is that if possible, I'd hinge the forward hoop from the base of the 'roll bar' (radar arch?). That way when you fold the covers back the whole thing will be more compact. It may encroach on you headroom too much, I'm not sure.
The other is that, whilst it makes the styling more difficult, I'd try to incorporate as much height into the side sections of the windscreens as possible. The newer types of clears are good, but they aren't as good as glass. On my boat, with its swoopy profile I find that I'm quite often dipping my head down to look through the glass to get a clearer view.

Don't think Hinckley have built a soft-top picnic boat have they? But then given that they were the first to ever use Lobsterboat styling, I guess they must have...?!?

[tom28571]

I don't thik it will work very well for the forward hoop to be permanently attached to the arch. Unless the canopy is pretty short, the geometry doesn't work out. The hoop could be on an short interior sliding track or moved from the arch to the forward location. I spent several hours yesterday on a boat with the upper forward part of the canopy made of vinyl in order to get standing headroom on a 17 foot boat with a self bailing cockpit. It was possible to look out through the thing but at speed visibility was definitely not good. I would try for a windshield high enough for good vision standing or sitting but in smaller boats it gets awkwardly high.

I would laminate the arch of wood and make it oval shaped with the upper part lined up horizontal in the major axis. It would make an excellent place to install antennas of various types. It would be made strong enough to take abuse such as a heavy crew hanging onto it for support. It takes a little away from the traditional appearance that I prefer but seems very practical.