Steam Engines and regulations

[Dutch Peter]

Situation sketch:

Got a query last week if I knew what regulations are applicable for installing a small steam engine in a launch.
Intension is to import the steam engines from Australia and the launches from Poland and combine the two.

This is the funny/strange thing happening now:

In Europe we have the Pressure Equipment Directive for equipment like this, but steam engines onboard ships are exempted!!!!

For small boats we have Recreational Craft Directive, but a supporting standard to cover steam engines is not available (and I suspect won't be for a couple of years). Furthermore the size of launch allows for "self-certification", so no outside involvement required.

Conclusion: there are no regulations for building-in a steam engine in a small boat!

I'm wondering if this situation is happening in other countries and if anybody knows what regulations/requirements are applied/demanded.
Also like to have a discussion about the safety issues and if this is a healthy situation, I think not!!!!

[jehardiman]

I don't know about the EU, but here in the US, steam boilers not covered by the USCG regs fall under Fedural, state and local laws; which for most means a (yearly) boiler inspection and certificate of operation under the National Board of Boiler and Pressure Vessel Inspectors (http://www.nationalboard.org) in order to get insurance. All steam powered launch and hobby train clubs I know of set up one day each year when the inspector come and gives them all the inspection. Surely there is a similar orginazition in the Netherlands to keep static boilers used for home heating from blowing up?

[D'ARTOIS]

There is, called "Stoomwezen" i.e. any vessel under pressure sold to the general public, needs their confirmation of design and inspection of the particular vessel.
However, Dutch Peter might be right that a steam propulsed ship might be excluded by our continuous changing of law and rulings.
Last time I had a straight conflict with those people was when I tried to import mini fire-extinguishing equipment. It consisted of two high pressurised Halon 1301 canisters of 500 ml. Because of the (too) high pressure in the vessels, import was denied. They still rule.......

[artemis]

Originally Posted by jehardiman

I don't know about the EU, but here in the US, steam boilers not covered by the USCG regs fall under Fedural, state and local laws; which for most means a (yearly) boiler inspection and certificate of operation under the National Board of Boiler and Pressure Vessel Inspectors (http://www.nationalboard.org) in order to get insurance. All steam powered launch and hobby train clubs I know of set up one day each year when the inspector come and gives them all the inspection. Surely there is a similar orginazition in the Netherlands to keep static boilers used for home heating from blowing up?

Don't know what steam powered launch club you belong to, but the only one in the Pacific Northwest is the Northwest Steam Society and we just finished proving to the Washington State Boiler Inspection Division that it had no jurisdiction over steamboats of ANY size operated on a navigable waterway of the United States. ALL pleasure motorboats propelled by steam fall under the jurisdiction of the US Coast Guard and there are NO regulations for steam powered motorboats 40' and under in length. The Oregon State Boiler Inspection Department agrees with this finding and will not inspect any steamboat operating within its jurisdiction. The North American Steam Boat Society (which covers the New England area) also has no such "annual inspection".

That being said, the Northwest Steam Society has published "Guidelines for Operating Safety in our Hobby". It is a fairly complete set of procedures to ensure that you don't blow yourself (and others) up. I edited this handbook and the contributors include two licensed practicing MEs, two builders of ASME code boilers, two licensed Masters, and two licensed Marine Engineers.

We care about safety enough that we do not want an "accident" (there is no record of a hobby steamboat explosion in the US in the past 50+ years).

Ron Fossum

[artemis]

Originally Posted by Dutch Peter

Situation sketch:

Got a query last week if I knew what regulations are applicable for installing a small steam engine in a launch.
Intension is to import the steam engines from Australia and the launches from Poland and combine the two.

This is the funny/strange thing happening now:

In Europe we have the Pressure Equipment Directive for equipment like this, but steam engines onboard ships are exempted!!!!

For small boats we have Recreational Craft Directive, but a supporting standard to cover steam engines is not available (and I suspect won't be for a couple of years). Furthermore the size of launch allows for "self-certification", so no outside involvement required.

Conclusion: there are no regulations for building-in a steam engine in a small boat!

I'm wondering if this situation is happening in other countries and if anybody knows what regulations/requirements are applied/demanded.
Also like to have a discussion about the safety issues and if this is a healthy situation, I think not!!!!

The situation in the European Common Market regarding hobby steamboats is in flux. I would suggest you contact the European Steamboat Federation http://www.steamboat.org.uk/esf.htm , the Steam Boat Association of Great Britain http://www.steamboat.org.uk/ , or the Deutscher Dampfboot Verein http://www.dampfboot.de/ddv-home.html as starters.

Dr. Ing. Rainer Radow of Berlin, Germany is an avid member of the DDV and built a boiler to his own design for his 28' boat Emma which was approved and passed by the appropriate German authority. You may contact him: rainer@radow.org . You may say that I referred you.

As an aside, the only manufacturer in quantity of steam engines that I know of in Australia is Strath Steam http://users.olis.net.au/strathsteam/. Rod Muller (the owner) also makes boilers to Australia's code which are acceptable in Europe. If he is doing the work, then you may be assured that you are getting a quality product.

If you wish to contact me directly, you may do so: artemis@pcez.com

Ron Fossum - I've been in the hobby for 35 years!

[Dutch Peter]

Ron,

Thanks for the reply, you gave me some great sites. I'll certainly contact you or mr. Radow if I don't get any further. But I have some other sources.

BTW, I'll use your email only for personal stuff, any comments and results I'll be posting here.

Brien,

Funny you mention "Stoomwezen", it's now called Lloyd's Register Nederland b.v. and part of the LR Group. The odd thing is, they know about steam engines, I know about boats, but the link is kinda missing (not technical, but on regulations).

[jehardiman]

Originally Posted by artemis

Don't know what steam powered launch club you belong to, but the only one in the Pacific Northwest is the Northwest Steam Society and we just finished proving to the Washington State Boiler Inspection Division that it had no jurisdiction over steamboats of ANY size operated on a navigable waterway of the United States. ALL pleasure motorboats propelled by steam fall under the jurisdiction of the US Coast Guard and there are NO regulations for steam powered motorboats 40' and under in length. The Oregon State Boiler Inspection Department agrees with this finding and will not inspect any steamboat operating within its jurisdiction. The North American Steam Boat Society (which covers the New England area) also has no such "annual inspection".

True, I am not an expert on all local interpertations on steam vessels, but the group I am familiar with is in Maryland and the state law is quite clear. All boilers fall under the statute unless excepted. See http://198.187.128.12/maryland/lpext...s-main.htm&2.0. Register your steam launch in Maryland...get your boiler inspected. Granted, you could, with prudent size and pressure selection, even avoid this statute.

Edit to add. I also note that in MD, inspection is conducted by authorized insurance inspectors, so that may be the tickle.

[artemis]

Originally Posted by Dutch Peter

Situation sketch:

Got a query last week if I knew what regulations are applicable for installing a small steam engine in a launch.
Intension is to import the steam engines from Australia and the launches from Poland and combine the two.

Dutch Peter - Ron Fossum back to you again:

Is the person making the enquiry a Rob van t Riet? I ask because Peter Carlich of Reliable Steam Engine Co. (I just designed his website for sale of plans, etc.) received a communication/email today (January 21) from Rob van t Riet enquiring about his 5 HP compound, boiler etc. and asking about quantity prices as well as selling/shipping same finished but unassembled. Mr. van t Riet closed by saying: "Figured out liability \ certification problems for holland\eec (lloyd's) and plan to sell units\complete boats so all asme or other cert. you have please send along."

If so, then the people planning on selling these steam launches do not "have their ducks in a row", and I would approach the whole thing with great caution. I also question the market size for these launches in Europe (maybe 5 a year - MAX).

Ron Fossum

[Dutch Peter]

Ron,

Yes it is, but very strange he mentioned his problems are solved as I told him I was not sure!
I'm still making inqueries and he got the answers???

Story continues......

[greg simpson]

there are no specific reg's for the installation of steam engines but in most pressure vessel construction directives, all boilers in all situations must be of an approved design confirmed by an appropriate body:if constructed of steel,to have the welding observed by the appropriate insurers representitive:and once built,be pressure tested to the insurers specified test pressure,usually twice working pressure.
the engines themselves can be of any design,built by anyone and out in any boat, driven by any steam source.

a question to you though,what production plan have you thught up?:
-have a stock?
-build as they're ordered?

and what market were you looking to sell them in?;
europe,aus,US?
each continent may have different reg's controlling the building of the launches.

its nice to see that someone is thinking of a viable way to offer ready to sail steam launches again,to my knowlege you would be the only company in the world building type-specific boats,not on a one off basis,in the world.
not that it might be anything to do with how much cnfusion there is directing the business though?!?!?