The Price of Ethanol

[Ike]

The latest news on the Ethanol wars: It's pretty obvious the oil companies are not passing on this price drop to us at the pump.


Ethanol’s Boom Stalling as Glut Depresses Price
NEVADA, Iowa, Sept. 24 — The ethanol boom of recent years — which spurred a frenzy of distillery construction, record corn prices, rising food prices and hopes of a new future for rural America — may be fading.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/30/bu...hp&oref=slogin

[Frosty]

It would seem America is a world on its own. I would imagine that most non American readers would be confused as to what Ethenol is,-- as am I.

In all the countries I have lived there has been petrol stations selling A--petrol of various octane from 91 to 95 here in Thailand ,and of course B--deisel.

In England too Ethenol has never been a purchasable option, although 95--105 and up to 135 octane is available at airports.

What the hell is it?

[safewalrus]

Whos Ethel and why is the price she charges of importance? Unless you've coped a dose off her that is!

(but Frosty you could try making your own!)

[Ike]

Ethanol is simply Ethyl Alcohol. Everywhere else they just call it alcohol. We Amercans, since we don't have our own language, use buzz words to confuse everyone else. The Government requires the oil companies to put it in gasoline to make our engines burn cleaner and cause less air pollution. E10 is 10% alcohol. They even make E85 which is 85% alcohol. The oil companies have been telling us that alcohol makes the gas more expensive because alcohol costs more per gallon, which is a lie. Anyway, now the price of alcohol has dropped but the price of gas keeps going up. Somewhere there is a disconnect. Of course no one in the administration is going to do anything about it because our President and VP have huge amounts of money invested in oil and are making a killing.

[marshmat]

Frosty,
Ethanol, or ethyl alcohol, is (chemically) ethene with an OH group replacing one of the hydrogens. It is the same chemical that makes you drunk when you chug a bottle of rum. In this case, it is used in its pure form (booze is rarely more than about 40% ethanol) as an additive to, or replacement for, gasoline.
Ike,
I see a few conclusions from this, none of them indicative of anything good.
- America values motor fuel more than it values food.
- Oil companies are way too greedy.
- Free market forces, left to their own devices, result in wild and self-destructive oscillations.
I doubt this mess would exist had the United States government planned out the regulation and promotion of the alternative fuels industry with an eye to stability and long-term supply. But they didn't do that; instead the hype over ethanol was used to rationalize poorly planned farming subsidies with no real overall vision. Without anything to control the development of the industry and match supply with demand, the market is being sent into wild oscillations as mismatched supply and demand work against a glut of hastily set up, poorly organized producers.

[safewalrus]

Ike in the first place thank you for the enlightenment - I was aware of the stuff but didn't realise it was an 'additive', thought it was more a 'replacement'.

Incidentally I would hope your quote ".......invested in oil and are making a killing". Is litrative rather than actual but I fear not, looking at your present (and ours) policy in certain parts of the world!

[Ike]

Walrus, I normally stay as far out of politics as possible and I almost never comment online. I spent twenty years in Washington DC working for our government. Most of what I saw was good. But I got to observe first hand the inner working of politics and there is a lot that isn't good. There is a lot of deal making going on, and behind the scenes stuff, that isn't really hidden, it just never makes the papers unless there is some big scandal or other newsworthy event.

To answer you question, in the USA, elected officials are required by law to divest themselves of any "conflict of Interest". The Bush family holds a huge interest in the oil business. So technically (and in compliance with the letter of the law) Pres Bush has transferred his interests in the oil business to someone else. I don't know who, but probably another family member. That is common practice. Of course it comes with the proviso that when he leaves office, it will all come back to him. I have seen this happen with every president since Nixon. Kennedy was probably the only one who didn't have to worry about this because he was so independently wealthy he couldn't be bought. Anyway no one can tell me that the Bush family is not profiting off of the huge profits the oil industry has made in the last few years because they are part of that industry. And so is Cheney even though legally he too has divested himself of his interests in the business. They are simply being held by someone else for him.

Do you recall the hooorah last year about allowing a company from Dubai to be the contractor for managing US ports? Eventually it was all dropped. Pres Bush commented (not a quote) that he didn't see why it was such a big deal. Of course he didn't. One of the main offices of the Bush Family oil business is in Dubai.

Anyway that's all I'm going to say.

[Frosty]

So this Ethelene stuff gets you drunk. How much is it a gallon then?

[Mychael]

There was an aircraft flying the airshow circuit that was modified to run on pure ethanol. It's advantages (as I understand it) is it's much higher detonation rating (anti-knock) as opposed to petrol. One of it's disadvantages is that (like LPG) you will use more of it for the same amount of engine running hours as the amount of petrol you would use over the same period.
Of course so long as there is a single drop of petrol left to sell and make profit from no government will push ahead with alternative fuels.

Mychael

[eponodyne]

And of course there's the Gubbimint-induced attempt to sell hydrogen as a legitimate alternative.

This, of course, is because hydrogen as a fuel source requires infrastructure out of reach of the average consumer. Never mind that anybody who passed high school chemistry can titrate out fuel-grade fuel from vegetable oil; and REALLY never mind that hemp is probably the best choice for fuel-grade vegetable oils.

Mind you, ethanol and hydrogen--and gasoline too-- certainly have their uses. But as long as it's people who identify with Left politics who are espousing alternative fuels, it will forever be associated with smelly hippies living in yurts and hiding their money under the soap so their commune-mates can't find it. And therefore it's relegated to some sort of lunatic fringe, instead of being brought into the light and spun as being a very patriotic thing to believe in.

[Bergalia]

Originally Posted by Mychael

...Of course so long as there is a single drop of petrol left to sell and make profit from no government will push ahead with alternative fuels.Mychael

Come now Mychael...You should know that our glorious leader (one J.Howard) has the hots for adding ethanol to petrol at the pumps...and not just because it will suck up to the sugar-cane farmers in Queensland during this election year...or am I being silly...

[Mychael]

Sugar cane will be the only thing we have growing if they follow through with paying farmers to leave the land and sending all the water to the city.

Mychael

[Bergalia]

Originally Posted by Mychael

...paying farmers to leave the land and sending all the water to the city.Mychael

Honestly Mychael, you're being so obstructive...How else do you expect the city 'silvertails' to fill their swimming pools....

[charmc]

Originally Posted by eponodyne

.... it will forever be associated with smelly hippies living in yurts and hiding their money under the soap so their commune-mates can't find it.

Sounds like the voice of experience??

[Landlubber]

No Frosty, we are not going to bulk sell Bundy Rum to you for your "boat" use, been there done that.
Rum 'n' Coke is quite different to Rum 'n ' ethanol, even after a few drinks.