Victron Energy Phoenix

[oceanwanderer1]

I have recently purchased a Victron Energy Phoenix Multicompact 12/1600/70 Charger/Inverter.
I installed it into my boats system as suggested by the installation manual. It was checked by a competent electrical engineer.
When connected to shore power, the unit works perfectly.
When I'm running under my Genset it switches on, runs the Inverter, but will not operate the charger, it tries to, the charger light comes on and then goes off, it tries to operate every 4 to 5 minutes with the same result.
My Genset shows an output of 230V & 50 cycles.
My Genset operates my other Xantrex battery charger without any problems.
Does anybody have any ideas as to why the charger doesn't work under Genset

[BertKu]

Woohw, that is a difficult one.
I assume it has something to do with the impedance somewhere. The Inverter is assumed a modern microproccessor driven sinus wave, or is it just another system.

Have you tried to have at the output of the genset also to put a 100 watt globe, parallel with the inverter?

Is the load connected to the charger, when you run the genset, or is it open voltage? ( and then afterwards load the charger?)

Let see whether we can crack this problem.
Bert

[oceanwanderer1]

Hi Bert,
Thanks for your reply, the Victron Multicompact is new and yes the inverter is sine wave and part of the Victron multicompact package.
The installation is pretty straight forward, it's temporary until I return to Thailand towards the end of the year, when it will be wired into the system properly.
Both the Inverter and the charger are connected to my boats system by way of a plug and socket. The Victron Multicompact is plugged into the 240v ring main, power is supplied either when the genset is running, or from shore power.
I have a separate ring main which is supplied from the Inverter of the Victron Multicompact.
If I switch on the Victron Multicompact when the genset is running, the inverter side of the unit supplies power to it's ring main no problem. The charger starts to indicate (by way of lights) that it's working and within 15 seconds it stops and the lights go out.
At approximately 5 minute intervals, the charger tries to start again, but then shuts down again - it's as if the batteries are fully charged, but then it should go to float, it's receiving a signal to shutdown, but I'm puzzled as to why!
I do have the Xantrex battery charger, when I try to use the Victron Multicompact I ensure that it is disconnected.
When the ring main is being supplied by shore power, the charger works absolutely fine. It steps through the sequence of charging exactly as it should do.
I hope this answers your queries
I am very grateful for your assistance. Alan

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by oceanwanderer1

Hi Bert,
Thanks for your reply, the Victron Multicompact is new and yes the inverter is sine wave and part of the Victron multicompact package.
The installation is pretty straight forward, it's temporary until I return to Thailand towards the end of the year, when it will be wired into the system properly.
Both the Inverter and the charger are connected to my boats system by way of a plug and socket. The Victron Multicompact is plugged into the 240v ring main, power is supplied either when the genset is running, or from shore power.
I have a separate ring main which is supplied from the Inverter of the Victron Multicompact.
If I switch on the Victron Multicompact when the genset is running, the inverter side of the unit supplies power to it's ring main no problem. The charger starts to indicate (by way of lights) that it's working and within 15 seconds it stops and the lights go out.
At approximately 5 minute intervals, the charger tries to start again, but then shuts down again - it's as if the batteries are fully charged, but then it should go to float, it's receiving a signal to shutdown, but I'm puzzled as to why!
I do have the Xantrex battery charger, when I try to use the Victron Multicompact I ensure that it is disconnected.
When the ring main is being supplied by shore power, the charger works absolutely fine. It steps through the sequence of charging exactly as it should do.
I hope this answers your queries
I am very grateful for your assistance. Alan

Thus we have to look at what is different from having offshore power versus running it on its own. Is there any static what could be build up, incase an earth is loose, or not at all present.?
Has the offshore power, its earth connected to your boat?
Bert

[oceanwanderer1]

Hi Bert,
I didn't answer part of your question.
When my genset is running, it shows on the panel 220V and very very close to 50 Hz.
If I then switch on the Victron, all the other functions on the boat that are also switched will work normally, including any appliance connected to the Victron's inverter.
Aye, Alan

[oceanwanderer1]

Hi Bert,
That's an interesting question, especially your mention of the earth being connected to my boat. The answer is yes, it comes into the AC distribution box - however, my boat is aluminum, and I believe the earth is treated differently from say a fibreglass boat.
So perhaps the earth of the shore power and the genset are treated differently, and it could be the charger doesn't like it.
It might be the genset doesn't have an earth.......
Unfortunately, I'm not on my boat at present, I've just left for Australia to visit my son, and then I fly onto London to my Mothers birthday party, arriving back in Singapore in 4 - 6 weeks time.
I'm quite excited by this thread and I'm not on the boat to check it out!!
I will try and check with the builder.
Bert, many thanks, I'll get back to you as soon as I find anything out. Aye Alan

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by oceanwanderer1

Hi Bert,
That's an interesting question, especially your mention of the earth being connected to my boat. The answer is yes, it comes into the AC distribution box - however, my boat is aluminum, and I believe the earth is treated differently from say a fibreglass boat.
So perhaps the earth of the shore power and the genset are treated differently, and it could be the charger doesn't like it.
It might be the genset doesn't have an earth.......
Unfortunately, I'm not on my boat at present, I've just left for Australia to visit my son, and then I fly onto London to my Mothers birthday party, arriving back in Singapore in 4 - 6 weeks time.
I'm quite excited by this thread and I'm not on the boat to check it out!!
I will try and check with the builder.
Bert, many thanks, I'll get back to you as soon as I find anything out. Aye Alan

Well, have a nice flight. As soon this problem is sorted out, maybe you should also put a new thread on the net: WITH AN ALLUMINIUM BOAT, SHOULD I ALLOW OFFSHORE EARTH TO BE CONNECTED TO THE BOAT : YES or NO"
You might get some very interesting answers. I personnaly do not believe to have the ofshore earth connected to the boat. You boat will be a magnet in my view, for all stray currents. But that is what I believe, let see what others have to say.
Have a marvelous trip and come safely back, just ask the NATO (or Gadaffi) not to shoot a rocket, while you are flying over the MED.
bert

[sdowney717]

Do you have one of these?

A galvanic islolator uses several diodes. They “disconnect” the safety ground until just over a volt is present on the safety ground then they conduct and you have a ground connection.

http://www.dockwalk.com/essentials/d...=posts&t=29052

[Mark Cat]

Using an isolation transformer:

My Aluminum Hulled projects are usually 50 to 120 feet. Meaning bigger vessels.

The approach I used for shore power is to use an isolation transformer. If you look at ABYC E-11 or Charles installation notes you will see how the shore earth (grounding conductor) is only used on the primary side shield, and is not connected to the hull.

Also an ELCI (RCD) is used to basically monitor the feed to the transformer and trip due to problems in the feed or transformer leakage with aging.

The output of the isolation transformer is considered, in NEC language, as a separately derived source, so at its output we connect the grounded (N) and grounding (GND), from here the grounding conductor is connected to the main negative star point ground which is connected to the hull. Each derived source is treated in the same fashion.

----------

If you do not have an isolation transformer then the shore ground is connected to the hull ground using a galvanic isolator and an RCD becomes even more important.

Without an RCD:

The issue with not tying the shore power ground to the star ground (AC+DC+HULL+ENGINE) connection point, is that if there is a cross connection between the DC and AC systems due to melting a wire or some other problem, the AC cross connect (fault) could energize the DC system (usually finds its way to ground) which is connected to the water through the hull or engine or some other way, and endanger a swimmer without tripping a shore breaker. No connection to enable the breaker to sense ground fault.

With RCD:

An RCD essentially uses the grounding conductor as a leakage path to provide a means of sensing leakage current upon an equipment failure. An RCD without a ground should trip based on a person, or equipment issue creating leakage greater than 30ma back the the shore grounding rod or grounding potential. However, we would like to provide a static means to provide a return for leakage to facilitate detection, so it is best to not require a swimmer, or some other means, to trip the RCD. So we need the grounding conductor connection to the hull.

Meaning the full benefit of the RCD is realized when there is a connection to the water (aluminum hull). We then do not need a person to complete the circuit to trip the RCD, and leakage is continually monitored, in a way continually protecting the boat and people.

For galvanic corrosion relative to shore power grounding we use a Galvanic Isolator. It is possible that the dock or another boat connected to shore power may have a fault creating stray current corrosion with a potential greater than the galvanic isolator blocking potential (AC or DC), but not very common. If you are at the same dock for extended periods, then you can use a DMM to see what potentials are in the water relative to dock grounding. If there is a problem with the dock AC, you would not want to connect to it anyway.

oceanwanderer1:

What size shore breaker do you have?
What size genset breaker do you have?
What is the output of the genset?

Would you have an up to date wiring diagram of the boat, after the installation of the new inverter/charger?

Mark