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  #76  
Old 02-21-2017, 05:29 AM
Manfred.pech Manfred.pech is offline
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Originally Posted by UpOnStands View Post
sigh, we have argued this too long. Go build your hulls with round bows to minimize turbulence and drag. Take it sailing and report back to us.
Don`t despair of round bows. Bjn does not need to build the hulls. A simple model can help: Two hulls, which has least drag? or a CFD simulation http://www.panix.com/~brosen/catamarans.html.

On the other hand round bows can be dangerous in waves. My first catamaran (21ft) was able to plane and was fast when it was blowing. I remenber a strong north eastern and waves about 2m. The cat planed over the crest of a wave and got stuck into the next wave. The boat stopped at once and nearly lost the nine meter mast. I`ve never tried it again.
If I had a round bow the boat would have been destroyed.
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  #77  
Old 02-21-2017, 05:37 AM
bjn bjn is offline
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Originally Posted by UpOnStands View Post
sigh, we have argued this too long. Go build your hulls with round bows to minimize turbulence and drag. Take it sailing and report back to us.
I'm not interested in arguing. I'm only interested in science. I was hoping we could reach a conclusion based on science.

Looking at other boats may provide clues. But I would never copy a design if I don't understand or agree with the science the design is based on.
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  #78  
Old 02-21-2017, 07:25 AM
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pogo pogo is offline
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Originally Posted by bjn View Post
I'm not interested in arguing. I'm only interested in science. .......... I would never copy a design if I don't understand or agree with the science the design is based on.
So you believe that all hull designs are based on science and you wanna have confirmed your own visions by such a science ?

pogo
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  #79  
Old 02-21-2017, 08:25 AM
valery gaulin valery gaulin is offline
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The only thing I can say is that for the mini Transat 650 they just discovered a couple years ago that blunt bow perform better in general than pointy bow!!!! It took a while to discover tjis!!!!!
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  #80  
Old 02-21-2017, 08:29 AM
UpOnStands UpOnStands is offline
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Originally Posted by Manfred.pech View Post
The cat planed over the crest of a wave and got stuck into the next wave. The boat stopped at once and nearly lost the nine meter mast. I`ve never tried it again.
If I had a round bow the boat would have been destroyed.
you, sir, are a very lucky man. Not sure how you managed to avoid injury.
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  #81  
Old 02-21-2017, 08:39 AM
UpOnStands UpOnStands is offline
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Originally Posted by valery gaulin View Post
The only thing I can say is that for the mini Transat 650 they just discovered a couple years ago that blunt bow perform better in general than pointy bow!!!! It took a while to discover tjis!!!!!
I thought we went through this elsewhere. The mini Transat 650 hull shape is in no way applicable to catamarans or indeed any heavy displacement keel boat. The mini Transat 650 surfs on its side so what is up front is not "round for being round" but volume to prevent bow bury. The full volumes port and starboard yield the bluff bows.
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  #82  
Old 02-21-2017, 08:44 AM
semelis semelis is offline
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Originally Posted by UpOnStands View Post
I thought we went through this elsewhere. The mini Transat 650 hull shape is in no way applicable to catamarans or indeed any heavy displacement keel boat. The mini Transat 650 surfs on its side so what is up front is not "round for being round" but volume to prevent bow bury. The full volumes port and starboard yield the bluff bows.
Yes, we have been here.
It has been useless, it seems.
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  #83  
Old 02-21-2017, 08:48 AM
UpOnStands UpOnStands is offline
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Originally Posted by bjn View Post
I was hoping we could reach a conclusion based on science.
This is from rastapop "bjn, the primary function of an airfoil is to produce lift (usually while also trying not to increase drag too much).
The primary function of a bow is not to produce lift, it's to minimize drag (among some other things not relevant to the discussion).
The differing functions require different shapes. "
This is science, & engineering & a lot of experience.
The primary function of a wing mast is to produce lift and minimize drag so it has a rounded leading edge.
The primary function of a rudder is to produce lift and minimize drag so it has a rounded leading edge.
The primary function of a dagger board/centerboard is to produce lift and minimize drag so it has a rounded leading edge.
The primary function of a LAR keel is to produce lift and minimize drag so it has a rounded leading edge.
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  #84  
Old 02-21-2017, 09:01 AM
bjn bjn is offline
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Originally Posted by pogo View Post
So you believe that all hull designs are based on science and you wanna have confirmed your own visions by such a science ?

pogo
I think every good design is based on science.
science:
"the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."

With this thread, I am hoping to find out if a too sharp bow is bad for performance on a sailboat.

The consensus seems to be that the sharper the bow, the better. But my theory is that a too small radius/too sharp bow might be bad. So to me, it looks like there should be some kind of tradeoff between factors. I was hoping that someone on the internet had knowledge about this. So that is why I started this thread.
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  #85  
Old 02-21-2017, 09:07 AM
bjn bjn is offline
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Originally Posted by UpOnStands View Post
This is from rastapop "bjn, the primary function of an airfoil is to produce lift (usually while also trying not to increase drag too much).
The primary function of a bow is not to produce lift, it's to minimize drag (among some other things not relevant to the discussion).
The differing functions require different shapes. "
This is science, & engineering & a lot of experience.
But if the sharp bow creates more drag while sailing, than a, for example, slighty more rounded, it doesn't matter what the primary function is.
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  #86  
Old 02-21-2017, 09:30 AM
bjn bjn is offline
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Originally Posted by Manfred.pech View Post
Don`t despair of round bows. Bjn does not need to build the hulls. A simple model can help: Two hulls, which has least drag? or a CFD simulation http://www.panix.com/~brosen/catamarans.html.

On the other hand round bows can be dangerous in waves. My first catamaran (21ft) was able to plane and was fast when it was blowing. I remenber a strong north eastern and waves about 2m. The cat planed over the crest of a wave and got stuck into the next wave. The boat stopped at once and nearly lost the nine meter mast. I`ve never tried it again.
If I had a round bow the boat would have been destroyed.
Thanks for the tips. Yes it would be interesting to study a model with different radiuses of the bow, with different leeway angles and different speeds. Don't think I will spend the time or the resources for a study, unfortunately. I was hoping someone had already done the job! =)

Nice software, I will see if I can find the time to play with it.
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  #87  
Old 02-21-2017, 09:48 AM
semelis semelis is offline
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Originally Posted by bjn View Post

With this thread, I am hoping to find out if a too sharp bow is bad for performance on a sailboat.

The consensus seems to be that the sharper the bow, the better.
There it is. You found out. But ....

Quote:
But my theory is that a too small radius/too sharp bow might be bad. So to me, it looks like there should be some kind of tradeoff between factors. I was hoping that someone on the internet had knowledge about this.
Yes, and they have answered. But you have not liked their answers because they contradict your theory.
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  #88  
Old 02-21-2017, 09:57 AM
bjn bjn is offline
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Originally Posted by semelis View Post
Yes, and they have answered. But you have not liked their answers because they contradict your theory.
I'm sorry, but I must have misunderstood those answers in that case. Could you point me to one or two?
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  #89  
Old 02-21-2017, 10:30 AM
semelis semelis is offline
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Originally Posted by bjn View Post
I'm sorry, but I must have misunderstood those answers in that case. Could you point me to one or two?
No, if you have not seen them, I can't think of any way to make you look at them.
I'm sorry for my incompetence.
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  #90  
Old 02-21-2017, 10:51 AM
bjn bjn is offline
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Originally Posted by semelis View Post
No, if you have not seen them, I can't think of any way to make you look at them.
I'm sorry for my incompetence.
I think there is some confusion going on here though. One thread is about full blunt bows. There is a fusion between this and that thread. Which I can understand. Because I was originally thinking a large radius of the bow would be the best, since it's the best for foils. Then I could see that I was wrong. So now, when I read replies about fully blunt bows, I don't think it's related to what I'm talking about. Might be that I've missed something because of that.

My view on the subject is I think the sharp bow may not be a big issue. A few cm of an edge in the water probably can not create much drag. But I still think it's interesting to understand more about this.

I'm sorry if I make you feel incompetent, that is not my intention. I feel that there is a lot of hostility aimed at me. I'm trying my best to ignore that and to keep explaining myself. But I think I have failed.
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