Where are the catamaran innovations?

[rayaldridge]

There's a lot of wisdom in what Phil is saying, and as a former sufferer from that infamous illness of sailors (two-more-feet-itis) I can testify that an awful lot of folks would have more fun with a boat smaller than the one they presently own.

Other than a few sailing dinghies, Slider is the smallest boat I've ever owned, and it's also, by a very large margin, the most enjoyable. Coincidence?

Maybe.

But simplicity, handiness, and a closer-to-human scale are very attractive qualities in a boat.

[Fanie]

Look, I'm not hard set on something must be this way and nothing else. I've been involved in small boats all my life, but off late the space is getting to me and one is limited no matter how you look at it.

One of the reasons I personally am trying to get away from small boats (besides me getting old(er) ) is safety. You go out and a storm moves in, usually when there's nowhere to hide fast and when you're too far out. The small boats have a problem, and it takes a lot of doing over time to get it back to beach safely. This is in my opinion where a slightly larger boat makes a huge difference.

Carefull design I'm sure one can make it as easy to handle as a small boat, it may be slightly heavier to winch out on the trailer but a bigger winch does it as easy as the small one would. Sail too heavy... add another block. I'm always thinking, make it so the wife will do the work... I'm going to be fishing so I'll be buzy

[johnelliott24]

Here is a different tri:
http://s371.photobucket.com/albums/o...he%20trimaran/

The goal is to be fast to rig, fast in light air, fast in heavy air, and almost impossible to capsize. (The amas have foils like Hydroptere.)

What do you think?

[Chris Ostlind]

That you disturbed a lot of folks at Dana Point Harbor... ;-)

The wide shots are nice, but I'd like to see the close-ups to see how you solved a few of the issues for a boat like yours.

Please post some more stuff.

[robherc]

Were the foils not mounted yet in those pics, or was I just not looking closely enough? (I couldn't find 'em...but I WAS lookin' )

[robherc]

. . .

[johnelliott24]

Yes, Precarious! has already disturbed some cat sailors. What details did you want to see? Yes, the foils were not on since it was a light day at DP (good eye). The foils are leeboards that swing down (for the kelp) . There is a daggerboard in the main hull, for light days. The setup now has a new main hull and light weight rear crossbeam and inflatable "tramps" -- so basically a new boat that is much lighter with the same modified Tornado rig. There is also a 150 sq ft genoa for light days.
The goal is to be sailing off a ramp in 15 minutes, design a boat that is easy for anyone to make and store in narrow side-yards, have a boat that has a nice gentle motion in the motorboat chop we have here, and to be very fast in all conditions. In a month, when things get warmer, the new version will go out. So far so good, the first version sailed well in light air -- never got out on a windy day.

[robherc]

Cool, keep us updated...and I'd love to see some windspeed & GPS speed for it...show us how efficient a boat you've made (once it's back on the water, obviously).

[dstgean]

Originally Posted by Fanie

I know a lot of people does this, they want to get away (too) cheaply at the expense of the real issue, a nice enjoyable boat. Now he limits himself to discomfort and what he can do with the boat. If it was me I'd rather save up another year and get something worth while, usable and enjoyable. The boat always looks big in the garage, but on the water the size quickly dwindles away.


If this guy and his buddy wants to rough it out there once in a while I would say the 6m is fine. This guy wants to take his family out on this cat. I can tell you now his outings with his family is going to be few and far between. I saw the same with my wife on my little 5m5 tri. We're out for a few hours and she needs a break, keep in mind the little tri is 4m wide. The space and little extra comfort just does not exist on these small boats. In my opinion 8m is about where the limit is between going too small and discomfort and some comfy and the wife agreeing to go with.

The small boat is going to be used three or four times and then it's going to sit in the garage untill the wife wants to throw the white elephant out. All the time and troubles and expense for this frustration. Just my opinion.

If you want the wife to go with, then you better let her in on things.

Good insight. You are entitled to your opinion as well. This boat is a modernized H21SC that is a little drier. As a teacher, I could save for a decade and still not afford the "cheap" Virus boat 8m that is so cool. However, my tastes in adventure and use for the boat are not the same as yours are I suppose. I'm looking for a big beachcat. I think Chris has delivered in spades. If I was looking for a cruising boat along the lines of the other ones mentioned, I think you'd be right. Taking my wife and daughter along will be for short jaunts and possibly some camp cruising. I need to account for everyone's enjoyment, and a 2 year old girl will hang in there for about 20 minutes for any one thing. For me, I can enjoy the Hobie 18 for about 4 hours, and I need a break. For the sort of costal cruising I intend to do, I think an overgrown beachcat is about perfect. For others, this might not be the case.

Ray has derrived a lot of use and pleasure form his 16' cat, and I'm much more inclined to do something managable like Chris' Neo than to bite off more than I can chew. Chris articulated why in an earlier post. Now that the H21SC is not in production, there's really no beachcat cruiser. I could afford one of those, but I think Chris has done it one better.

I really like 8-10 meter cats, but are you going to drag one up a beach? Can you use a beachcat rig on one? Can you store one in a garage? What is the setup time like? Do you really want to sleep in a coffin sized hull?

I like the deck tent program for warm weather destinations. I like a boat I can assemble relatively quickly, beach, store in my garage, get on the water for about 2 grand, etc. All boat are compromises. Finding one that suits your needs is critical to the boat's enjoyment. I find that small boats just are more fun, get used more, and are affordable.

I'd say beachcats ARE nice enjoyable boats. Chris has just made it a more capable dry beachcat. It is still a beachcat though--with their ups and downs. The size may dwindle away on the water, but that's what beachcats are designed for--smaller size operations. I'm not going cruising; I'm campcruising which is much different. Think kayaking with more range and more convenience items.

If the boat is a small enough investment of time, $, and love, there's little reason for the White Elephant to be thrown out regardless of how much she uses it. It'll only sit in the garage for the winter, where it will avoid storage fees, weathering issues, etc.

I'm quite happy with the concept, the look of the boat, and the overall cost.

Dan

[dstgean]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

Thanks for the kind words about my cat Chris and Fanie you will have to excuse my directness about size but we are so heavily ingrained into bigger is better that it takes a shock to get one snapped out of it.

The big one is almost killing me.

Contrast this with the little 6 metre folder. She sits on the lawn out the front - utterly disregarded until I hook her up and take her out.

The 7 metre version must get finished this year (Deborah has given the ultimatum) it will be a great boat with more room but not much more loading.

None of these boats is perfect. To live on I would chosse the 11.6 metre one. To play on the 6 metre one. The 7 will do very nicely as a compromise. Some days I could get rid of all of them and just get down to kayaks - we have two beautiful kayaks that are absolutely fabulous for what they do. Whenever I or my family change our perfect boat does as well. For a suburban bloke with a mortgage like me a big boat is a shackle - it ties me down to cruising my local area. A folder or a light trailerable boat gets me further than the liveaboard because I can drive it there instead of spending weeks. I drove the 6 to Fraser Island in 1 and a half days. It usually took us two weeks in Kankama.

So my take on it is that a designer has to carefully listen to his client and then draw a boat that will get them out on the water. There will not be a one boat that will do all just as we are all different.

As to my take on fast small cats - I don't go this way. The way I see it most blokes want to go sailing and if they want to take their partner along will be happy in a boat the partner is happy in. So I say design a cat with as much comfort as possible and give away top speed but not low end speed or manouvrability. Top end speed is useless if your kids are yelling at you to slow down (The LEGO towers fall over) so compromising a cruising cat for it is silly. Design in comfort, safety, manouvrability, ease of use on beach, tacking ability, dryness or whatever else before worrying about whether it will go 15 knots max instead of twenty.

cheers

Phil Thompson

I am off to do more sanding on the big one - long live smaller boats!

Good stuff Phil! I've followed your since you started a prototype folder. I also like your idea that no one boat is perfect. That's why there's so many types! Nothing will replace my kayak, surfboard, beachcat, etc. But I wouldn't use one in the same circumstances as the other except I can campcruise with the kayak and beachcat. However, it's a different trip. My wife loves kayaking and after the neo is done that will be the "next boat".

As Graham Brynes said to me on last year's T200, "You need more arrows in your quiver."

As long as they are small craft, there's no reason not to have a kayak, sailing outrigger canoe, a beachcat, a Neo, etc. But I'm also a young guy that loves to camp.

If I didn't love camping, I'd be looking for a very different boat. Viva la difference!

Dan

[Fanie]

Dear Dan

I really like 8-10 meter cats, but are you going to drag one up a beach?

Darn no ! I could hurt me back, so I'll let the wife do it instead


As for the boat, I only spoke my piece. Whatever you decide to get is up to you. It was meant well.

As for buying the next size up boat most of us are probably in the same boat wrt the available funds.
At least you don't have to wrestle the wife for the next roll of glass...

[robherc]

Originally Posted by Fanie

At least you don't have to wrestle the wife for the next roll of glass...

I just commandeered this year's tax refund for glass & kevlar for my 7m beach cruising cat. (don't tell my wife!)

[Fanie]

He he... the same everywhere. I have my beams glass stashed in the garage under the worktable. Now I have to find an innovative way of obtaining the beams swivel pins ($$$) without the wife realizing what it is.

Last time the wife found a box of a big reel I bought. I'm still recovering (mentally) from that scourching

[Othmar]

Hi Folks,

I want to show you my concept of a cruiser catamaran, which is especially useful for elderly people and live aboards. It is the result of my observations in marinas in the last years. More and more retireds live on board of catamarans which are uncomfortable by stepping permanently up and down into the hulls. Flatcat may be an alternative.

http://www.multihull.de/flatcat

The text is sorrily in German, but the sketches say all, and an automatic translation may help additionally.

[Fanie]

Nice ideas there. One Q - in the galley doesn't one want some less moving space so you can support yourself when working there ? Unless the boat stays in the marina of course.