Wharram Tiki wrecked in Thailand

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by ***** bianchett

Dear Watson ,

do you live in a country whose legal system DON'T depend on 'who you knows' ?

Yes - *I* do, and I have successfully had bad business practice compensated, and *not* threatened anyone with vengeance if they visited my country. Its just another indication of the mentaility at work here.

Just more "rubber logic"

Anyone who tries to pass off such blatently underengineered construction, and claims to have built it "according to plan" is not only incompetant but greedy not to immediately rectify the work.

I you were in a country where there was properly enforced consumer legislation, you would be made to fix it.

I cant believe the hide of this man. Its like arguing with PR rep from the Exxon Valdez!

[Herbalife]

Originally Posted by rwatson

Anyone who tries to pass off such blatently underengineered construction, and claims to have built it "according to plan" is not only incompetant but greedy not to immediately rectify the work.

So would Warren show the plans and survey report for his boat? If he has...

rtwatson: have You seen the boat yourself?

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by Herbalife

So would Warren show the plans and survey report for his boat? If he has...

rtwatson: have You seen the boat yourself?

Yes - of course - it is posted on Mr Warrens Blog. There has been no contention that the illustrations are "faked" or are another boat by anyone.

What the boat builders have done is substitute some very marginal honeycomb material as substantial plywood framing, instead of building to "plan" - as the company keeps stating.

This is the crux of the matter.

Sure, ***** may not have built the boat, but he is obviously an official of the company, and if you take the trouble to read the reproduced responses to the customers complaint (which have not been refuted either) you see that he is not admitting the seriousness and potentially life threatening shortfalls in the build.

Its one thing to fix an error in a build, its another to have a system of boatbuilding that doesnt pick up such critical aspects through proper supervision and quality control.

An Australian boat building owner was jailed recently because shoddy work caused lost life.

[Herbalife]

Originally Posted by rwatson

Yes - of course - it is posted on Mr Warrens Blog. There has been no contention that the illustrations are "faked" or are another boat by anyone.
...
An Australian boat building owner was jailed recently because shoddy work caused lost life.

I asked about plans, not photos.

My understanding is that Tiki in question is not original Wharram's design, but composite boat? Did customer provide composite Tiki plans to the builder? If construction is not to plans, why doesn’t he arrange a survey?

So rwatson You haven't seen the boat?

[Laughingcruiser]

Albert, no need to be hyposensitive I am not criticizing you, I am certain you are more than capable of providing plans for an alternative hull construction to Wharram’s original specifications.

As I stated at the outset “according to what I have read” similar information was posted by Creed on his building blog during the construction of his Tiki 38.
Are you denying that you provided the plans for Creed’s hulls?

Flagging the moderator is a bit of an over reaction isn’t it?

[Laughingcruiser]

Albert, If what you are saying is in fact true then I accept your explanation.

Have a nice day!

[Laughingcruiser]

To the Moderator, The censorship of legitimate comment that does not contain defamatory remarks or breaches the rules of this Blog is farcical. What ever happened to free speech and you’re Fifth Amendment?

I think censoring my comments at the bequest of Alik is a joke, particularly when the comments were a legitimate opinion.

Since when did Alik take over the moderation of this forum? Poor, very poor!

No doubt this will be censored as well!

[Laughingcruiser]

Apex1, democracy may prevail and my comments may not be censored, however due to the content and profanities in your post your's will be.

Remember Apex1, this Blog is moderated by an American, and America is an ultra conservative society to say the very least.

However, I agree with your sentiments.

[_Tom_]

Originally Posted by sloopjb

The 'Low price catamarans' thread which unfotunately degenerated into a farce was however an informative insight into the ramifications of building 'at a distance' . The experiences of the dissatisfied customers and the reaction to their complaints were astounding. It would seem that one customer was quite correct in doubting the seaworthyness of his newly completed Tiki 38.

I've seen the boat anchored near Ocean Marina, Pattaya the day before it washed ashore and afterwards on the shore (still more or less intact, masts upright).
Washed ashore you could see it had been on a small anchor, no chain, maximum 15m of rope. There was no storm during the night - only a little stronger wind, onshore, about force 4-5.
It made my heart bleed seeing this beautiful new boat ashore - don't know to which standards it was built but the finish looked exeptionally fine, work seemed to be well done.
The construction sure didn't cause it to break apart - it was the neglect afterwards.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Laughingcruiser

To the Moderator, The censorship of legitimate comment that does not contain defamatory remarks or breaches the rules of this Blog is farcical. What ever happened to free speech and you’re Fifth Amendment?

I think censoring my comments at the bequest of Alik is a joke, particularly when the comments were a legitimate opinion.

Since when did Alik take over the moderation of this forum? Poor, very poor!

No doubt this will be censored as well!

You posted that the designer in question worked on this.

The designer replied that, no, he had not, that "This statement is not true" and further that "We have never provided any drawings for modified Tiki."

The responsibility was then on you. You did not post any evidence to substantiate your claim, and no one else posted to back your assertion up. Then the way I read your followup, you accepted that your initial post which has now been removed was in fact incorrect (you said "If what you are saying is in fact true then I accept your explanation." Around here, a good man would be expected to either pony up the evidence at this point and stand behind his assertion, or else say "I'm sorry, I was wrong. I apologize.")

Thus when the designer requested his name be removed in your post, I saw no reason not to delete the post now acknowledged to be in error.

I will stand up for people posting legitimate questions with photos, drawings, documentation, evidence, corroboration -- facts. But I do not believe you flinging insults or implications at a designer who was not involved with the project at hand does anyone any good. I will not come to your home or office and stop you from saying whatever you wish, but at the same time I intend to keep our forum here as a friendly place for factual and substantive discussion. If you prefer a place where you can toss insults around freely, then perhaps you should find another.

[_Tom_]

Originally Posted by ***** bianchett

Creed was close to buy a Pahi 52 here in Pattaya at that time ; built as from plans : cannot tack without start the motors , as many of these boats . ( and sailing fast as a rock )

Hmmm - you're talking about "White Seal", right? She tacks alright, if you know how to do it and we sailed 4-5 Knots in 7-8 Knots of wind, that's fine for me

[robert self]

Originally Posted by Jeff

You posted that the designer in question worked on this.

The designer replied that, no, he had not, that "This statement is not true" and further that "We have never provided any drawings for modified Tiki."

The responsibility was then on you. You did not post any evidence to substantiate your claim, and no one else posted to back your assertion up. Then the way I read your followup, you accepted that your initial post which has now been removed was in fact incorrect (you said "If what you are saying is in fact true then I accept your explanation." Around here, a good man would be expected to either pony up the evidence at this point and stand behind his assertion, or else say "I'm sorry, I was wrong. I apologize.")

Thus when the designer requested his name be removed in your post, I saw no reason not to delete the post now acknowledged to be in error.

I will stand up for people posting legitimate questions with photos, drawings, documentation, evidence, corroboration -- facts. But I do not believe you flinging insults or implications at a designer who was not involved with the project at hand does anyone any good. I will not come to your home or office and stop you from saying whatever you wish, but at the same time I intend to keep our forum here as a friendly place for factual and substantive discussion. If you prefer a place where you can toss insults around freely, then perhaps you should find another.

He is *****'s goto naval architect. Stated many times by RB himself. Circumstantial evidence suggest to me that these 3D renderings from the RB website came from him. I'm not saying he is responsible for *****s under-supervision resulting in shoddy workmanship. But he probably got some rubles for his time. If not from Creed than from *****. He don't work for free, that's for sure.

Furthur, if I could access an archive of Creed's old blog I bet I might be able to find his discussion of trading drawings, ideas, consultations with him. I might be wrong though.

See Alik post:

Low price Catamarans

He makes it abundantly clear he had nothing to do with the now infamous, but prescient, Ferguson's blackcat, Stone's "Island Breeeze" or Riven's catamarran taxi. But Creed's Tiki had yet to be launched.

What a difference another wrecked catamarran makes. He and ***** at ************ Boatyard were more than willing to turn the "Low Price Catamaran" thread into a farce with 10's if not 100's of armchair posts. Where were the moderators then??

On the plus side. It appears these two close business associates of ***** ********** in Pattaya would prefer to distance themselves from him on the World Wide Web and not be mentioned in the same thread. That's a good thing.

cheers
robert self

[Angélique]

Originally Posted by robert self

N.... is R....'s goto naval architect. Stated many times by RB himself.

See RB's blog for RB's statement about the naval architect of the T38 mod's:

http://*****-**********.blogspot.com...catamaran.html

" At the beginning, he and I worked with A.... N.... to redraw the hull lines to better suit strip-planking. "

See also JWD's warning:

http://wharram.eu//live//article.php...90828125835689

Regards, Angélique.

[RHP]

Guys, I'm not sure this thread is supposed to be a witch hunt is it?

[Alik]

Robert, there was some correspondence between me and Creed. He has sent me few inquires on 'ethnic catamarans' and 'Jester replica' we discussed some projects. I also have some sketches what I did during/after meetings with him (it is not modified Tiki but new designs of smaller boats). This is normal pre-contract work of designer. But DESIGN or DRAWINGS have never been paid, this correspondence and meetings never resulted any DESIGN. We have never issued any drawings to Creed, if You know what drawings are. Please take it clear and do not post Your insinuations anymore. If You have any drawings of modified Tiki with our company box - please post it here and now, otherwise I will require Your post to be removed.

After I realized/found that he is going to do the modification of Tiki, and presenting our work as modification of other's design, I stopped all work with Creed and asked him to remove any mention of me and our company from his blog.

So please do not reference Creed's blog here, what was used in the blog is not valid or authorised to present our work as designers. Our work is only presented on our company website (including boats designed and launched), not on private blogs of third parties.