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  #46  
Old 02-05-2017, 01:44 AM
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guzzis3 guzzis3 is offline
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Originally Posted by JasonCatt View Post
Resale = $0, problem solved.
Unless something goes wrong. Financial problem you need to ditch assets, health problem whatever...

Thing is I'm not trying to tell you what to do, I'm just suggesting you consider substituting foam for ply in the hull construction. Mick may well give you scantlings if you buy that design.

The build process doesn't change much. I've no idea how big a financial impact it'll have on a 40 boat but for the boats I'm interested in it's about 10% or something. Resale, maybe 40%, less maintenance. In australia foam will be faster and cheaper than strip for the below waterline bits.

Anyone know what typical foam/glass scantlings are for a 40' cat ?


Quote:

Apart from loving to work with wood, I haven't found any plans for flat panel foam built cats that are similar to the Waller in terms of simplicity, overall cost, ease of build etc. I've spent quite a bit of time searching but perhaps I need to keep looking? Sailhand's comment on the previous page about a flat pack kit that can be built to faired and antifouled hull stage sounds fantastic...
But, if there really is a better way to build a large volume, reasonably priced cruiser I haven't found it yet.
Yep build the waller but ask him if he's willing to do up scantlings for foam, then you can cost them and see what impact it'll make. Same boat, plenty of timber inside, different hull material. No stringers, no permanent frames, no epoxy, no rot.

I don't think sailhand was referring to a specific kit or design. It's just a general thing that many designes can be re-engineered for foam flat panel construction. You can make the panels yourself and save a packet of money or get them premade and even precut and save a packet of time.

Just a thought.
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  #47  
Old 02-05-2017, 04:06 AM
JasonCatt JasonCatt is offline
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Originally Posted by guzzis3 View Post

Yep build the waller but ask him if he's willing to do up scantlings for foam, then you can cost them and see what impact it'll make. Same boat, plenty of timber inside, different hull material. No stringers, no permanent frames, no epoxy, no rot.

I don't think sailhand was referring to a specific kit or design. It's just a general thing that many designes can be re-engineered for foam flat panel construction. You can make the panels yourself and save a packet of money or get them premade and even precut and save a packet of time.

Just a thought.
Thanks Guzzis3, keep 'em coming, it's all very much appreciated.

I'm well covered for any eventuality so this project will never be sold under duress, so I'm lucky there...

I don't think I have ever heard of a foam kit that can be built to faired, antifouled hulls in just a few weeks, have you?

Regarding having a design re-engineered for foam, I had no idea this was even possible. Apart from rot (which I don't consider to be that much of an issue if the build is done correctly), and resale (which doesn't affect me) why would I want my hulls to be foam? You say it could save a packet of time, which would definitely be worth it. I know little about building with it, and what little I do know is gained from watching YouTube videos of foam infusion. Would it really be drastically shorter than ply?
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  #48  
Old 02-05-2017, 11:33 AM
catsketcher catsketcher is offline
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Foam would be great IF you had a female mould and that is the deal breaker. Without a female mould the foam hull will require an extensive male mould and a lot of fairing. Going flat panel from a table would get around some of this.

Peter and Anne Snell built one of the first strip plank cats in Australia. They don't build in ply because they don't know other build methods but because it makes sense in many ways. PLy can be a fab material - homogenous, better quality control in good ply than amateur foam or strip plank construction, no coring required at cutouts (that is a huge pain in Duflex and foam).

I would update any Easy or Waller with composite chainplates and deck fittings. Don't drill holes and bolt stuff on when you can stitch and epoxy it on instead.

cheers

Phil
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  #49  
Old 02-05-2017, 03:24 PM
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Angélique Angélique is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsketcher View Post

. . . . I would update any Easy or Waller with composite chainplates and deck fittings. Don't drill holes and bolt stuff on when you can stitch and epoxy it on instead.
David @ Boatsmith in Florida built a nice example of carbon fiber chainplates* on a Wharram Ariki . . .
* as designed by Eric W. Sponberg, a now retired Naval Architect . .
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  #50  
Old 02-05-2017, 10:09 PM
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guzzis3 guzzis3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonCatt View Post
Thanks Guzzis3, keep 'em coming, it's all very much appreciated.

I'm well covered for any eventuality so this project will never be sold under duress, so I'm lucky there...

I don't think I have ever heard of a foam kit that can be built to faired, antifouled hulls in just a few weeks, have you?
I have no idea about anything to do with a 40' boat, but I think we may be speaking at cross purposes. Now this is just my impression of teh confusion, I may be wrong:

I THINK sailhand was talking about taking delivery of a premade cnc cut set of foam panels and probably a precut assembly mould. If you start with that then there is little fairing of the flat panels you just have to smooth the chine fillets tape fair then paint. Depending on how many chines this can either make the process a lot faster or not much.

Catsketcher seems to have combined my comments comparing strip to foam and flat panel foam to ply. Generally creating the blow waterline double curved areas in strip will be slower and dearer than foam. I never said that was faster than chined ply. Generally chined ply is the fastest method, solid glass and foam is second and strip is the slowest of the common methods. Chined flat panel glass is faster than building a mould and making a curved foam surface with a hand layup.

Now I personally don't think on your boat chined vs curved is going to make sfa difference. That stuff only matters on high performance boats. But if your comparing build methods you need to compare apples with apples.

IF you want a rounded shape below waterline then your chined options are gone, your basically down to tortured ply/cylinder moulding, or foam.

If your doing a chined hull then you've got chined flat panel foam or chine ply. With foam you've got premade kits, as I said dear but fast, or home made, much cheaper (MUCH!) but slower. What those differences are for a 40' boat ? no idea, as I've said it's just completely beyond my experience.

Quote:

Regarding having a design re-engineered for foam, I had no idea this was even possible. Apart from rot (which I don't consider to be that much of an issue if the build is done correctly), and resale (which doesn't affect me) why would I want my hulls to be foam? You say it could save a packet of time, which would definitely be worth it. I know little about building with it, and what little I do know is gained from watching YouTube videos of foam infusion. Would it really be drastically shorter than ply?
Foam is only faster than ply if you pay someone to make the panels, otherwise it's slower. See above.

You wood won't rot as long as you keep it completely sealed from water ingress. Completely perfectly along every square inch or all those many many square meters of surface area. Forever. Go talk to people with old ply boats and see how many have a perfect track record. I'm not talking about the backyard disasters, go take a look at 20 yo professionally built quality ply boats. Ask a surveyor how many they have inspected that have no issues, and on't et me started on balsa...

It's not just the bilges, it's every inch of the boat, everywhere.

Foam is significantly lighter. That's more payload or faster sailing. There are fewer if any frames or stringers inside, less cluttered interior, easier to keep clean, furnish, move about in in a seaway.

I've owned ply boats and I hated the trouble, but I'm in a completely different situation. I won't have a ply boat again, but you may be happy with yours. Everyone is different. Just be aware the reality of building a boat is probably very different from your preconceptions. As suggested previously there is no substitute for hands on experience. Go labor on someone else's project or build a small boat first. It WILL be a revelation.

Then build what you want to build.
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  #51  
Old 02-05-2017, 10:14 PM
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guzzis3 guzzis3 is offline
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And I urge you to read the articles on Richard Wood's site. Seriously he lays out the issues with these choices so much better than I can, clear concise and spot on. And as I say he just doesn't push people in one direction, he tells it like it really is. Don't buy into evangelism, there is no one perfect answer to any of these questions.
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  #52  
Old 02-06-2017, 03:17 AM
catsketcher catsketcher is offline
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One of the nice things about ply is its low toxicity. It is quite nice to not have to suit up in a space suit every time you want to join two bits. That being said I also like working with foam, Duflex or strip. I just don't get as itchy with ply.

Peter and Anne Snell told me of a story about selling their last boat. They had it on the market and someone came down to the marina and absolutely did not want a ply boat. Foam and nothing else he said but he then decided to have a quick look at their Easy. He looked over their boat and made a very good offer - on a ply boat.

As for building times - I think that ply requires the least orientating than any boat building method. Almost everyone has worked with wood and the tools required. As for rot - don't worry. My 16 year old boat has had small issues ONLY where I was dumb. Don't expose the edge grain during the build and it won't be an issue. Even if you do get some you cut it out and put new stuff in. But if you reduce bolt holes, chainplates, genoa tracks (get rid of them) your ply deck will have very few potential rot points.

What ply does better than any other material is tell you when you are getting close to structural limits. Foam with its thin laminates can fail catastrophically whereas ply will start to show telltale cracks. It is more forgiving than many other methods. This shouldn't be a worry with the Waller or Easy as trhey are overdesigned.

Foam can delaminate and have core failure, balsa can sometimes go mushy, strip cedar can get some water ingress and ply can rot. Choose the build method you want. They all have problems. Try putting a foam boat on an old fashioned slipway and cringe at the inability of the hull to cope with impact loading. That is why balsa is often used below the waterline. On a 38ft foam tri I helped build we laid down high density foam down the keel line to take such loads.

If I was to redo my boat I would probably make it out of foam with bits of cedar and ply. I would probably use a lot of ply inside and maybe on the cabin sides or anywhere I didn't need stringers. My 7 metre cat has foam hull bottoms, ply interior and ply hull cabin sides and foam decks. It has worked out well. A total ply build could be fun too.

You could always ring up Peter Snell and ask him if he is building a hull or two. He can make them up very quickly and it would be worth the trip across the Tasman to see him do what he does so well.

As Guzzis said, you have to find the method that suits you. There will be many times you won't want to get out to the shed. Liking the material will help keep you keen.

cheers

Phil
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  #53  
Old 02-06-2017, 03:19 AM
catsketcher catsketcher is offline
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Caveat

I like ply but I have gotten rid of all of the ply hatches on my boat. They are hard to make strong enough. I made new hatches out of glass/foam on a simple table mould. Much better that my old ply ones that would crack at the glue joins on the corners.
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  #54  
Old 02-06-2017, 04:38 AM
redreuben redreuben is offline
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Jason,
Have you looked at Derek Kelsall catamarans?
Stupidly expensive plans but the build method might just suit you.
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  #55  
Old 02-07-2017, 05:15 PM
JasonCatt JasonCatt is offline
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Originally Posted by redreuben View Post
Jason,
Have you looked at Derek Kelsall catamarans?
Stupidly expensive plans but the build method might just suit you.
I did look at his plans, and you're right, they are a little steep. I also thought his designs were a bit too classically styled for my tastes.
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  #56  
Old 02-07-2017, 10:55 PM
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guzzis3 guzzis3 is offline
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Originally Posted by JasonCatt View Post
I did look at his plans, and you're right, they are a little steep. I also thought his designs were a bit too classically styled for my tastes.
KSS is a good system and may present some significant advantages in a bigger boat but you could build something along those lines starting with the waller design.

I've read a bit about it and am prepared to believe I don't properly understand all the details of KSS, but as far as I understand it's mostly about making big infused panels and bending the below waterline up into a rounded hull shape. There are some other nice bits like making tabs for panel joining.

Mr Kelsall was a pioneer in foam sandwich and has been designing and building foam boats since the 60's, so I would expect his designs have a high degree of optimisation, but KSS like some other methods has a high degree of evangelism about it. Remember even if it cuts your hull build by 1/2 which it won't, you still have to build the rest of the boat.

Savings are always welcome but you have to keep perspective on all of this. As I have suggested previously, do your research, consider your options, get some practical experience than make a decision and stick to it. Don't get sucked in to hype and provided you don't take on a really weird design or build method you'll do fine.

And don't stress about the strip bits of the waller. Even if you build it exactly to plan, even if the strip takes twice as long as chined ply, it won't make a massive impact on the whole project. Your more likely to get bogged down after the hull than building the hull.

Oh yeah one more thing. Toxicity. If you build in timber you will at the very least be epoxy saturating the wood. If you glass or sheath you can't use poly or vinylester resin, you pretty much have to use epoxy. Epoxy isn't the most toxic thing on earth but it does have issues. Read up on it. As a woodworker you know there are some timbers with some level of health issues particularly with sanding.

That doesn't make timber bad, but as I KEEP saying, if one method was prefect and trouble free all others would fall away. You have a choice between problems/advantages. Pick your poison if I may pun

Last edited by guzzis3 : 02-07-2017 at 11:00 PM. Reason: Toxicity.
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  #57  
Old 02-12-2017, 05:53 PM
JasonCatt JasonCatt is offline
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Originally Posted by guzzis3 View Post
And I urge you to read the articles on Richard Wood's site. Seriously he lays out the issues with these choices so much better than I can, clear concise and spot on. And as I say he just doesn't push people in one direction, he tells it like it really is. Don't buy into evangelism, there is no one perfect answer to any of these questions.
I have read Richard's articles, and the more I read now, the more I realise I'm heading in the right direction with a ply epoxy build.

Thanks for all your input Guzzis3, plus the rest of you here on the forum, you've helped me to arrive back where I was at the beginning of this post - and I mean that with honest gratitude.

The whole purpose of posting here was to try to get some input as to which design I should go for, between the Easy Sarah and the Waller 1200. It has been an interesting exercise following through with all of your suggestions to look again at the different construction methods and in some cases looked again at different designers and their work, and although I have enjoyed revisiting many of the designs you gentlemen have suggested to see if I had missed something, I'm now certain I have not.

My comfort zone has always been wood - I can't see too many benefits associated with foam construction, at least for my particular set of circumstances.
100% of my boatbuilding experience (1 stitch and glue dinghy and a 14ft ply runabout) has been in ply, my tools are all for wood, so I'm going to stick with what I know.

It looks like at this stage I am going for the Waller, mainly because his plans seem more professionally produced, with less ambiguity compared with the Easy designs (and I stress "seem to be" as there is precious little info available on the Easy designs); plus I can get the CNC cut files with the Waller, something that is not available with the Easy. As far as I am concerned this more than outweighs my initial fears of building a strip planked hull below the waterline compared with multi chine.

I will definitely be heading over to Australia a little later this year to meet both of the designers and to have a look at an Easy Sarah and a Waller 1200 under construction. I'll make it the subject of a major post here for those that are interested.

Again, if anyone knows of either design being under construction here in New Zealand I'd appreciate a heads up.

In the meantime, a huge thanks to all who have contributed, what a great resource this site is.
Cheers!
Jason
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  #58  
Old 02-12-2017, 10:01 PM
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guzzis3 guzzis3 is offline
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The strip will be fine, don't stress.

From what I know of Mr Waller he will support you well during your build, it will be fine.

I will be very interested to share your journey so please do post.
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  #59  
Old 04-01-2017, 04:12 AM
sailhand sailhand is offline
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Have you decided on a design yet as I have some big news for you about bob oram. He is probably opening a limited shop again to sell his designs. It's not a 100 percent yet but looks like it's happening. He will be selling his plans a lot cheaper than he was and he is a massive plywood fan so worth talking too. The boat that was put together in three and a half weeks was an oram 44c from a kit. I was there when it went together, I was building another cat nearby at the time and was there the day after the kit was delivered in 2400 x1200 sheets and watched the kit go together. I called in every few days during the build and ended up doing some work on the boat. I've got photos with dates and times on them somewhere of that part of the build. They go together fast and fit out is even faster with nice smooth surfaces to work with. Anyway pm me if you want more info about bobs plans. Google scrumble oram catamaran binary, there are some youtube videos, for more info I think the webpage is still going but not sure. That is probably the longest build in history as its in its thirteenth year I think, but I don't think that's because of the design I think it might be the builder that's having the problems. Bob went up there and put all the kit together, that's every panel for the whole boat minus decks, and set up the temporary frames and put together the first hull keel panels in five days and I think it all ground to a halt after that.

Last edited by sailhand : 04-02-2017 at 05:36 PM.
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  #60  
Old 04-01-2017, 02:08 PM
JasonCatt JasonCatt is offline
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Hey Sailhand,
Now that IS interesting! I have long admired Bobs designs and was disappointed when he shut the website down and seemingly disappeared. I remember thinking at the time; surely he could have passed on the designs to someone else, or at least offered a plans only service, with restricted support. So this is excellent news for me. It does however leave me with a little problem: my nice simple shortlist of two may well become three.
I'll flick you a PM, perhaps you could pass on my encouragement and interest to Bob. I'd certainly welcome the opportunity to talk with him.
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