Veal Heel for Multihull Foilers

[waynemarlow]

Guys, Doug's lack of drawing skills shouldn't have anything to do with a discussion on boat design. Perhaps ask politely to clarify a drawing but never just diss a poster for the sake of dissing someone.

In my view and I think many others who have become very disillusioned with the pettiness ( in my view almost childish bullying ) so totally off thread, I'm asking politely that if you cannot contribute in an informed way then don't bother.

Chris you are a very well informed boat designer, why not contribute with ideas and informed discussion, if foiling isn't your thing then move on to better more interesting pastures.

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by waynemarlow

Guys, Doug's lack of drawing skills shouldn't have anything to do with a discussion on boat design. Perhaps ask politely to clarify a drawing but never just diss a poster for the sake of dissing someone.

Drawing skills most certainly do have something to do with boat design. They have been the central medium for communication from designer to builder ever since man with a hammer moved away from "Yeah, that looks about right". Accurate drawings are at the core of performing accurate calculations. The entry of accurate numerical values on the drawings is essential if one is to be able to fully understand the relationships as designed. That an individual purports himself or herself as a designer and can not properly represent themselves with decently presented drawings is not only weak, but it is potentially dangerous.

Wayne, this stuff is pounded into the heads of every young person who goes through any sort of design school and it sits at the center of one's ability to convey one's conceptual ideas. I don't know where you get this kooky idea that well done drawings are not essential, but it is as wrong as it can be.

There are other arguments associated with this topic, but I'll leave them alone for the time being.

Originally Posted by waynemarlow

In my view and I think many others who have become very disillusioned with the pettiness ( in my view almost childish bullying ) so totally off thread, I'm asking politely that if you cannot contribute in an informed way then don't bother.

Consider for a moment, then, that your adherence to the material put forth by your guru also represents a childish willingness to play follow the leader. Simply because Doug talks a good line about this material does not mean he knows of what he speaks. Ask him to show you the proof of concept photos showing his most accomplished full-sized foiler as it lifts-off from the surface and flies, under control, for several hundred meters. Go ahead, ask him.

Truth is he will not do so, because he can not do so. The imagery does not exist because the event never took place. Yet, here you guys are, traipsing around behind the guy as if he has it in the bag and there is so much to learn from his guidance. Hey, do you guys want to buy some shares in my elaborate pyramid scheme? You know, the one that enriches me and leaves you destitute and shaking your heads?

Originally Posted by waynemarlow

Chris you are a very well informed boat designer, why not contribute with ideas and informed discussion, if foiling isn't your thing then move on to better more interesting pastures.

Wayne, this is where your lack of knowledge about what has gone down on this Forum for more than five years shows itself in spades. Way back when Douglas first proposed his idea of a "People's Foiler", which has now shown itself to be but one of many non-realistic endeavors in the genre, I offered-up many, many ideas and solutions to issues that were present and being ignored by Doug. I genuinely looked to find a solution to the proposal, such as it was. I was joined by a few other very bright guys, who used to participate on this list and they, also, offered their take on many of the design solutions that begged to be addressed.

Doug's response...? To belittle, berate and rudely ignore that which was so obvious that it amounted to a bleeding child left in the street while wonder boy twiddled around with more complicated additions that took the concept far away from its intended goals.

I don't care if Doug is a doofus of grand proportions. It's his life. What I do care about is the fact that he routinely lumps persons from the foiling and general boat design field in some arbitrary bag of disregard. He's personally and rudely offended at least five World Champions in various classes of sailing and dumped on as many well-known designers of highly regarded and actively sailed craft. He has completely ignored, as well as aggressively attacked, the offerings of other extremely seasoned sailors with vast levels of experience in areas of which he has not one drop of knowledge.

In short, Wayne, the man is well off the scale when it comes to a person with decent and respectful interactive skills. He has made the bed in which he resides on these Fora and it is evidenced by having been abruptly and unceremoniously kicked out of Forums on several occasions. One does not get banned for being a good Forum citizen, Wayne.

Over on Sailing Anarchy, he's presently physically threatening the current Moth World Champion, as well as a journalist, simply because they said they'd like to drop by his home when next in Florida so that they could take a look at his so-called work in progress. A work, mind you, that he has hoisted as the next coming of Jesus for the foiling community. I've had offlist conversations with the editor/owner of the Sailing Anarchy site and Doug is sitting at the precipice of being permanently banned from that group, as well.

Now, what do you suppose that is all about?... the process of being banned from the most liberal, tolerant and free-swinging sailing Forum on the Internet?

I invite you to get a grip on how you interpret the behavior of your fellow members and do some homework on the topic before you start in with the "childish" commentary.

[ancient kayaker]

Drawing is a communication medium and lack of skills inhibit efficient communication. Doug’s word skills certainly exceed his drawings skills by a large margin. I don't want to make any personal comments other than that. There are too many words by far on this thread for the amount of information conveyed, so I will keep my comments short.

[waynemarlow]

Chris. So far today you have spent probably in excess of 3 hours writing on this particular Thread. How much do you charge clients for your time, now equate in dollars how much those 3 hours have cost you.

And for what, to try an belittle some verbose enthusiast of foiling. For the rest of the forum members you have offfered absolutely zilch, nothing of value to look at and disect, just the ramblings of some self appointed zealot.

You would have thought now after 5 years you would have learnt to discuss only the important issues and chill out on the rest.

By the way link me into SA on a foiling thread ( I can't really find any worthy of the read ) as I reckon I could tie up the rest of your day.

[Doug Lord]

My sketch was just that -a sketch- quick illustration to give a basic idea of the concept. The only error that I am aware of is the labeling of the angles-which I correct each time I post it.Perhaps I should have done a full width illustration. The representation of the angles is correct as is the foil submergence etc. The concept, as I have described it, is correctly illustrated in the sketch for one half the boat......If you see something you think is in error please point it out to me.

[Doug Lord]

This is another rough sketch to illustrate a tri going to windward with Veal Heel AND Power Foils. Power Foils are easily retracted when not needed and allow a multihull foiler to have very low wetted surface in light to moderate air as well as permitting a dramatic power increase in stronger wind. I'm convinced it will be an improvement on any currently existing multihull foiler, particularly in light to moderate air.
Note:
----scale is 3/8"=1' making overal beam(foil tip to foil tip) 21'
beam cl ama to cl ama= 14'
----foil tip clearance of both foils to the waters' surface is at least 2.5 times the chord of either foil
----each Power Foil is likely to require a wand to control altitude just as does the main foil. The difference is that the Power Foil wand will move the flap opposite
to the direction the main foil wand moves its flap(relative to the foil section)-actual movement is the same. The Power Foil wand will be automatically disengaged during a tack.
----The Power Foils allow the boat to carry more sail area than it could without them. Veal Heal adds to RM in a way not possible on a "normal" multihull foiler and
works in light and heavy air ,with and without Power Foils.


-----
The sketch fairly accurately depicts what I have in mind for an 18-22' tri using this technology to the max: (Click on tri image)

[Doug Lord]

First post of this thread, for those who haven't read it:

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

One of the most recent major contributions to the physics of sailing has come
from the little Moth monofoiler: it is called "veal heel" after Rohan Veal who developed it. Nothing new about heeling a boat to windward except when that boat is flying on hydrofoils. In that case with the boat heeled to weather the Righting Moment(RM) is increased by the amount the boat and crew CG move to weather of the center of lift of the foils. Not only that but the struts(daggerboard and rudder) supporting the hydrofoils are unloaded and a component of the hydrofoil lift acts to weather improving upwind vmg.
Multifoilers,to date, have either sailed level or heeled like a "normal" sailboat.( except for an unsuccessful experiment in the C class)
I think there may be a better way on a high performance trimaran that would use very small "amas" like the Rave but with a major difference: the new boat would use two foils-like a Moth- for boat speeds up to say, 20 knots. After that the boat would deploy(retractable) very small foils[Power Foils] from the vicinity of the windward ama that would generate downforce to increase RM.
I did a rough comparison of two boats each weighing exactly what a Rave does and the wetted surface is less at least up to 30 knots boat speed but whats more drag is less again, at least up to 30 knots. This thing could be designed to be MUCH lighter than a Rave(368lb) and could be substantially faster in 5-20 knots of wind.
But what is really cool is that the new concept foiler would sail with "veal heel" with the attendant advantages upwind.
Comments welcome.....

[Doug Lord]

I just had one of those astonishing moments of discovery that happen every now and then when you work a lot on something. Instead of the layout shown in my last sketch it is possible to do this in an entirely different manner and achieve the same thing with the Power Foils and veal heel while allowing a more "normal"(for a multihull) configuration when off the foils.
More later....

[Gary Baigent]

Doug, sometimes I sail Flash Harry like a Veal heal setup. windward float and foil down, leeward free from the water .... and this is not fast. Shift my weight so the windward one flies clear, leeward immersed and the boat is definitely faster. Admittedly this is in light to moderate airs - in a stronger wind your weight would not be able to keep the windward float and foil down. But with your sketch you have the windward and immersed foil pulling down .... and my question is that the negative angle of attack to achieve this has to be such that it causes a lot more drag then a conventional foil setup.

[Doug Lord]

Gary,thanks. I don't think the setup on your boat is a veal heel setup because to do it right requires that 100% of the weight of the boat is supported by the two main(in-line) foils-and that the CG of the boat is displaced to windward of the vertical lift vector of those foils(see the drawing) and that the vertical lift vector of the rig is to windward of the vertical lift vector of the foils. The power foil is NOT necessary for veal heel from the onset of foiling thru high moderate wind. It only kicks in at the discretion of the skipper when the skippers weight is not enough to maintain windward heel. The lift/drag ratio of the power foil will be the same or better, thru the designed wind range( at the designers discretion), as the main foil.
--
Again-the power foil is not necessary for veal heel except in relatively strong wing. This concept is not aiming to prove that veal heel works-that has been proven many times over-it is simply adapting the technique to a multihull "bi-foiler" to allow such a foiler to be able to take advantage of it.....
=====
PS Have you tried the new foils?

[Gary Baigent]

Didn't go sailing today Doug, whanau from Sydney arrived so went day tripping at Piha instead - whanau is Maori for family, Piha is a famous Auckland West coast surf beach.
Yes, I understand the difference between your in line foils and Harry's setup- but I don't think you need those large float type inverted T foils, why not just floats, less complication and less drag.

[Doug Lord]

Gary, the foils are actually quite small for a 16-20 footer about half the size of a Moth main foil(.5 sq.ft/.046m each). Like I said earlier the L/D of the power foils would be about 18/1-about the same as the main foils.
The real important thing, in my opinion, is that because these little foils only provide power in higher wind ranges they allow the boat to be designed to carry more SA in other conditions(light and moderate) than it could otherwise.
We'll see....
Good luck with the foils....

[Stefan H]

For a windsurfer, the thing you call "veal heel (?)" is pretty common. I also noticed the angle at which moth foilers sail and then a monofoiler makes alot of sense rather than having two foils.

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

This is another rough sketch to illustrate a tri going to windward with Veal Heel AND Power Foils. Power Foils are easily retracted when not needed and allow a multihull foiler to have very low wetted surface in light to moderate air as well as permitting a dramatic power increase in stronger wind. I'm convinced it will be an improvement on any currently existing multihull foiler, particularly in light to moderate air.

I don´t believe in using foils to pull something down since once airborne they lose the grip...it is just unreliable. Or will they push the windward float up? Although, extra foils and supports also creates more drag and unless you increase sailarea as well you will not go faster, although maybe get airborne faster in light air (depending on the sail /foil ratio you have now). Instead of more foils I would just increase the area of the foils in lighter winds. Small changes in size (a few cm) makes a big difference.

[Doug Lord]

Stefan, lots of boats use windward heel-but only a foiler can use veal heel.
With veal heel the center of gravity of the boat moves to windward of the center of lift of the foils in a way that can increase the RM 20% over the same boat plus crew hiked max and level. Look at the last sketch and the picture from the paper presented earlier. No other non-foiling boat can quite match this-and there are other advantages that pertain to foilers alone as well-like unloading the vertical fin thereby reducing the risk of ventilation.
----
As to pulling the windward side down with foils, look at the Rave hydrofoil and the Hobie trifoiler-both have foil systems that pull down on the windward side in strong wind-and the system works so well that RM is limited only by the structural strength of the boat-at least on a Rave.
The Power Foils above are designed to operate at the same lift to drag ratio as the main foils-about 18 to 1. That means that in their intended application they produce a lot more(negative)lift than they do drag.
And remember: because the Power Foils are only used in high moderate to strong winds the boat can carry significantly more sail area in light and moderate air than it otherwise would be able to.
===============
PS-Stefan, let me just say that I very much appreciate your feedback-thanks!

[Stefan H]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

As to pulling the windward side down with foils, look at the Rave hydrofoil and the Hobie trifoiler-both have foil systems that pull down on the windward side in strong wind-and the system works so well that RM is limited only by the structural strength of the boat-at least on a Rave.

These boats have a limited range of use, although I didnt say it wouldnt work.