Veal Heel for Multihull Foilers

==================
Thanks Wayne -you can bet I'll keep doing the best I can to present my own ideas and share other notable ideas I find in my travels. The world of small sailboats is exciting with a lot of opportunity for learning and experimenting.

 

It's about the ideas! That's the point. Some are builders, some are dreamers, some are both.

 

Yadda-Yadda-Yadda... it's about the dreamers... whatever

Well, here's a fairly obscure invention that I plan to include in one of my next boats. If you're a Christian, then the power to which I'm connecting is obvious. I fully expect whatever boat I create to be faster, lighter and spend more time above the water than any mundane foiler shown on these pages.

Here's the copy describing the essential inclusion that will, more or less, light my way:

"Religious Lamp with Fluid Flow
patent#: US 7118242

Jesus said in the book of John, "I am the light of the world." Now have him light up your living room!

But of course, a light up Jesus would seem too simple to be patentable. But what if we add a little animatronics? According to the patent, "Jesus' head rises with light actuation." That's right, wake him up right at his most painful moment.

But the spiritual uplift doesn't end there. The inventor threw in some dripping blood pumps for that I-can't-believe-how-much-this-guy-suffered-for-me effect.

Mel Gibson, why hast thou not pursued the merchandising tie-in?

patent issued on 10/10/2006"

http://www.patentlysilly.com/


Read 'em and weap suckers.

And the beauty of the scheme... is that I never have to prove that it can work by actually building the damn thing. All I have to do is hype it endlessly with the same photos, the same vague and awful drawings and the same dredged-up posts a year from now, even though not one thing has been done to move the proofs along to a final expression. It's an endless game of blabbery to which I will never be held responsible.

Gimme some love, shower naive idolatry on me and indulge my iffy fantasies.

 

Dear Mr Ostlind,

I think you are a finalist in the Most Cynical and Difficult To Get Along With People in The World Contest 2009. You won't win - you haven't met a NSW Labor Party politician - but you will be up there.

Best rearguards,

Mr Dog, B.

 

To be fair Chris, we do see ideas from Doug re foiling which just so happens is what I'm interested in at the moment, from you all I see is a personal vendetta and diatribe against the poster of some of those ideas. Chill out, enjoy the banter and promote your own foiling ideas to us all, certainly from a man with the experiance of designing boats that you have, almost certainly you will have some valuable nuggets for us all to digest.

If you are not prepared to resist in personal attacks then in my view, go somewhere else, at the moment you're spoiling my valuable reading time.

 

this is not the place to spend valuable time,
rather it is the place to await the thermoset reaction,
and the curing of paint.

 

Ah but once the thermoset reaction is taking place, its too late to try that latest idea which just so happened to have been triggered by a quick read on a boat forum.

 

This is my space, as much as it is yours, Wayne. I do not see fresh innovative ideas here from Doug. Instead, what is presented is rehashed, recycled and already well haggled stuff from a person who is filling the bandwidth with a boat design philosophy which has been proven to be ineffective. If the "ideas" being presented had one whiff of potential beyond doodling exercises, then I'd be more than happy to engage the process in a positive fashion.

As to personal diatribe... If you were tossing this kind of crap out there in as regular a fashion as is Doug, I'd be after your stuff, as well. On that basis, alone, this is not personal.

When a person brings their stuff to a public forum, then they should be prepared to accept that there will be folks there who will be ready to offer their opinions. Don't like the opinions, as they are expressed, then take your stuff somewhere else. It's a mean, as well as kind, world, Wayne. My posts were in response to your posting, not to anything put up by Doug. You made your statements in that regard, and I had my say. Is that offensive to you... that I have an opinion that runs counter to yours and I have substance to back it up, and not just opinion?

Let's take Terry, (Ancient Kayaker) for example. Here's a guy who proposed a collection of ideas that went beyond the typical. He put it out there for everyone to see, much in the manner of your boy, DL. Immediately, he began to do something about his desire to explore the idea collection beyond the hype and talking stage. He built the boat and the rig and then he really went too far.... he put it on the water to see how it worked. Best of all, he posted the photos of this activity as a proof of concept on this public forum, eliciting comments from the members.

Anybody, Wayne, can draw a cool new idea for an atom bomb on a bar room napkin. This could work, as long as they recognize the limitations of their expression. If they observe a bit of decorum in how long they use sad drawing to crow about their expertise, everything is cool. Truth is, my friend, nobody is going to believe one word of their nonsense until they gather the components necessary for this wonderful device and prove that it can actually work to the level they ascribed in their hyperbole.

Apparently, you take the napkin sketch stuff from Doug as legitimate expression material of a working example and have awarded him the same level of respect as one who has actually done the hard part.... they made their device work.

Our friend, Gary Baigent in NZ, used to be somewhat supportive of the work as presented by Doug. If you have been reading along with the rest of us, you can clearly see that Gary, as well, has issued a call for something along the lines of substantive performance... and I quote,

"Doug, why don't you bite the bullet and draw some plans - and ******* build (I'll reduce the compulsory super Moth to 7 metres, Judge Judy talking and she rules, okay) and enough of this theoretical BS - there comes a time where you have to produce something solid (or lightweight with water ballast in your case) - suck and see and making stupid mistakes and education from empirical knowledge are the way to go, matey - (this could occupy you for years) otherwise you'll mathematics yourself over the moon and just produce ephemeral dreams. Waiting with bated breath for plan drawings."

Along with about ten thousand other boat design folks, as well as active foiling sailors, I completely concur. Your boy has managed to offend several World Champion sailors, many of them from the foiling community. He is not respected by the foiling design community, either. He hasn't produced squat and he continues to recycle his crap over and over as if it were a package of fresh ideas.

Somehow you and the Doggy have managed to put yourselves in the grasp of the Doug Lord tractor beam. You have a short moment here in which you can effect an escape. Pick your poison. ;-)

 

Chris, Doug is not "my boy" and I'm old enough and I hope wise enough to be able to make up my own mind whether some one is rehashing ideas. I certainly along with many other readers on this forum don't need to be told by yourself what is worth reading or not. Your last remarks are not very enlightening nor do you much credit. To be honest whether I read someones views is none of your business.

What I come here onto this forum is to learn and accumulate ideas. Be careful, your constant petty bickering is not conducive to any forum being able to freely exchange ideas as people will simply move onto other forums as the Moth boys have done. Its when threads get off track and start to get more personal than detail to the thread, then the thread will immediately die.

It really is a shame that you in particular have killed off virtually every foiling thread with your personal attacks on Doug. I want to read about modern day foiling, in my opinion you are preventing that on this forum. You do on other threads make some very valid comments but on the foiling threads for whatever reason you seem to become almost irrational on your views.

Enough said, no grudges on my part and I'm now off to repair my T Foil which I inadvertantly broke whilst trying to land my cat on a very narrow slipway.

 

Whenever new ideas or new combinations of old ideas are presented there are always people who use ridicule and personal attack to cover up there own
inability to enter into a technical discussion. I see that a lot in some threads. The Moth thread under "Sailboats" is the largest Moth thread on any forum anywhere and those kinds of responses have not killed it-they soil it, however. They have not killed "Foiler Design" in the same forum. They are unfortunate but I have learned how to handle it-finally- by simply never(almost) responding to that kind of thing.
The subject of Veal Heel for multihulls is not a rehash of anything-it is a unique concept that I only relatively recently came up with and it has great potential. It is important to realize-and those who study it will- that the concept uses PROVEN technologies simply combined in a different way with potential benefits not seen in any current multihull foilers. IT IS A BRAND NEW IDEA and there has not been time to incorporate it and test it but that will be done. Further, I've been working on my new boat that will test at least three different technologies over a 5 year period for some time and have run into the usual delays, stoppages etc. But I don't give up-and anyone who doubts that should simply review my gallery.
I enjoy discussing new ideas and presenting ideas here despite the risk of the thread being soiled by ridicule, personal attack, etc. I realize the reason for it and simply ignore it as best as possible. And I thank those who are interested enough to wade thru the trash to try to understand the concept and welcome any questions or well reasoned criticism. It helps me think it out until the point I can begin testing. We all have to sweep trash out of the way in our daily lives-and it can be done here as well -without letting it ruin our forum experience.
-----------------------------
Veal Heel for Multihulls-Proven Concepts combined in a New Way:Greg Ketterman and Dr. Sam Bradfield pioneered the use of fully submerged foils that use the foils to generate all the righting moment required for the boat-that happens above a certain speed when the windward wand(altitude control system) senses heel and causes the windward foil to pull down. Where most multihulls have a limit on what winds they can sail in based on crew weight/sailarea the limit for the Rave/Trifoiler type of multihull foiler is simply structural: you stop sailing when the book tells you to or you risk catastrophic structural failure.
Dr. Bradfields Rave was the first small foiler that I know of that had(has) retractable foils and not only that each foil(including the rudder foil) had(has)
TWO sailing settings designed to allow the boat to be sailed in shallower water than might otherwise be possible.
John Illetts Moth foiler was the first altitude controlled bi-foiler to win repeated races and Rohan Veal thru lots of sailing was able to discover the benefits of windward heel on a flying bi-foiler. Those benefits are a lot different than the benefits associated with windward heel on any other boat with a 15 to 20% increase in Righting Moment(for "free") being among the most important. The bi-foiler,as developed by John Illet and Rohan Veal and refined by people like Andrew McDougal has proven to be very close to the fastest boat under 20' in foiling conditions around a course beating every monohull including Aussie 18's and all cats including the A Class catamaran and F18's.
-----------------
The combination of the previous technologies:
A very interesting fact is that the top end speeds recorded by both the Hobie Trifoiler and the Rave exceed that of the Moth but the Moth takes off much earlier and is faster in winds up to 20 knots. I've talked to a lot of people who sail both boats and that is the consensus. The trifoiler and Rave generally perform poorly in light to moderate air but the Moth excels in those conditions.
--A multihull based on all these technologies would try to draw the best from each-it would:
1) use just two foils in light air thru the lower end of moderate air keeping surface penetrations and drag to a minimum to allow very light air takeoff. It would be designed to utilize veel heel just like any other bi-foiler to take advantage of the extra RM and other advantages(see the paper below).
2) use retractable foils with a couple of settings for shallow water performance.
3) use a relatively small retractable windward foil with a wand based altitude control system . The wand would be retracted and deployed with the foil(like the Rave). This "power foil" would only be used above a certain windspeed( say 15-20k) and would be determined by design and experimental testing.
=============
These are all proven concepts and there is every reason to believe that this new combination would have the potential to provide the best advantages of both the bi-foiler and tri-foiler in a new configuration that takes off very early-say 5 knots of wind and yet can be powered up in the strongest wind with a power foil.
Summary of advantages:
1) low windspeed takeoff
2) beach launchable
3) 15-20% more RM for "free"
4) reefable rig(allows large rig for light air)
5) at least two foil depth settings
6) adjustable wand(s) for variable altitude
7) retractable/ deployable windward foil/wand combination that pulls down for additional RM
8) sliding bench seats for comfortable crew movement(possible power assist down the line)
Note that 1-7 are now being used to one extent or another on the following foilers: Hobie trifoiler, Rave, Moth, RS 600FF Mirabaud and Hydroptere. This is just a different combination of PROVEN foiler technologies.#8 is under development for my new boat.
------------
Thanks for the interest, e-mails and PM's-this is mostly a great community! Don't hesitate to post ideas, reasoned criticism or ask questions-we will all learn!

 

Doug, with the best will in the world, that long winded rehash of what you have already stated on numerous occassions, was entered at the wrong place and the wrong time. Duh talk about timing. We've been there and seen it before.

Now people can we move on to exploring decent arguments about foils ?

 

=================
Wayne, because it seemed that the thread had gone off track I tried to do a summary of the concept relating it to the existing technology that serves as the basis for the idea. I just reread the whole thread and I had not done that before......at least not all in one post.Sorry.

 

I tell you what, Wayne....

Get your fanny over to Sailing Anarchy and create a thread in which you ask, openly... "what individual has single-handedly ruined virtually every foiler thread ever posted on Sailing Anarchy.

I can assure you that there are hundreds more foiling enthusiasts on those pages than there are here and I think that the responses you get will be most enlightening, considering your current bias.

Specifically, you can write directly to the current World Champion of the foiling Moth Class, Bora Gulari and ask him to make some detailed comments to that same end. If you like, I'll send Bora a note and ask him to respond to your query. Bistros also knows Bora and can do the same on your behalf. The World Champion... who better to offer-up his own take on the legitimacy of Doug Lord within the foiling community? If you are hesitant, I'll save you the time. Doug has insulted Bora so many times that there's no way he'll ever tell you that Doug is a positive influence in the community. That same result will, literally, cascade in your direction from the members of the Sailing Anarchy Dinghy Forum. In any event, you should follow-up on your own because, you know, I might be slinging crap right now just to fake you out.

Another good person to query would be Sam Schneider. He's a great guy who is designing and building his own foiler in Colorado, USA. Sam is very technically addept and has assembled a first rate team of consultants who are helping him build a "Moth on Steroids" for his personal enjoyment. If you really are personally engaged in the process of diddling around with a foiling idea, I'm sure that Sam will be a great source of info, as well as support. You can pointedly ask Sam if I have done damage to the foiling community as he sees it and if Doug is not the real source of negative energy on the topic.
http://sr-71monofoilerproject.blogspot.com/

When you have the sack to run an open ended question before the majority of foiler enthusiasts on the Internet and then post your results here, you can make your lame observations about my so-called impact on the subject material. Until you do so, you're just another guy who has chewed too long and too lovingly on the bone, as it is presented by Your Boy Doug.

I know what you'll get in response and I suspect that you do as well if you really set your mind to it. The question is, will you have the personal courage to admit you spoke in error and subsequently make an apology right here on these pages, or will you show yourself as something entirely different?

Go ahead... You want to sling some crap? Get your fanny on over there and man-up. I'm confident of the results you will receive and will wait while you collect your due.

Ironically enough, Doug managed to prove most of my points in spades with the previous post to which you remarked with what must have been deep embarrassment. Is it not clear enough for you, Wayne? The guys over at Sailing Anarchy refer to this type of Doug Lord inanity as GroundHog Day, after the movie.

If posing the question over on SA is just too much for you to absorb, then, by all means, write me off-list and you and I can engage in any discussion you wish. My email address is available all over the place and you can leave a comment on any of the articles on my website, as I read them all. Our private dialogue will be held in confidence.

Best Regards,

 

Was Mike Nelson the school bully?

 

Was Red Reuben the leader of those with the pronounced sagittal crests?