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  #31  
Old 03-24-2009, 01:22 AM
catsketcher catsketcher is offline
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sad to see

I am sure that the original designers and many of today's designers of multihulls do not crunch huge amounts of data. After building heaps of boats many builders become good designers as they have seen what does and what doesn't work. Scantlings are a good example of this - most multihull designers I know of are not engineers and even if they were I would doubt the baseline load data they would use to start their calculations as there are very few (I know of none) everyday mutlis with load cells in them - (I did try to put them in a tri I built)

I am happy to see what Chris draws. If it gets built I will be happy to see this. As I see it Chris designs his boats differently from a first principles engineer - he has built boats and designs them from this background. I am also happy to see what Doug draws and will be happy to see his boats. I would also be happy to get Adhoc to crunch numbers of boats that work and reverse engineer them for the general public. That would be a very gracious act of civic duty.

We need the theoretical approach and the old fashioned approach as well - they both work although I trust the latter more than the former when the wind blows up.

cheers

Phil Thompson


  #32  
Old 03-24-2009, 01:25 AM
erikhaha erikhaha is offline
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Ad Hoc & Doug, are you guys serious? The guy is designing small trimaran/day sailing canoes. The way you two talk you would think Chris is designing 30'+ offshore sail boats. WTF. You 2 guys remind me of old men that are into ham radio.

When I was in high school I got into amature radio and got my novice class license. When I would go to this radio store there were these 2 grumpy(pissed off at the world) old men. These 2 were straightlaced by the book a-holes and they didn't let you forget the fact that they have been into radios since WWII and all the other B.S. that they talked about.

Relax guys. Geesh
  #33  
Old 03-24-2009, 05:46 AM
Guest625101138 Guest625101138 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind View Post
I'm sorry... your real name is what, exactly?

The rest of the post was garbled. If you will be so kind as to post your actual name, perhaps there is a sincere communication into which we can enter.
Chris
You are really wasting your time with this guy. He purports to know many things but knows very little. If you are interested in looking at train wrecks and ill-informed opinion have a look through his posts.

Here is an example of his efforts to put people down:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ad Hoc
just looked at your website

says you work with naval architects, engineers etc. So you're just a stylist as such?...in which case you'll need significantly more help than tips & advice in designing the catamaran! Understanding of structural principals, fabrication and materials for starters....
Quote:
Originally Posted by TYD
The catamaran is for Category 0 of ISO or RINA. Have a displacement of 7300 kgs.

I worked with others Naval Architects and Engineers of course. I know about structure, and I thought that could be a good idea talk on this forum about the work and maybe share thougths and images, but for now I only can see ''bad'' comments.

So, thanks again.
I'm wondering if was a good idea start this.........

Here is one example of many exchanges that really highlights his lack of knowledge:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TYD
The stress plot that you see is the Von Mises stress. I modelled the plate and the stiffener members. You can see these as a white line on the FEA plot........
To this response from TYD, an assumed stylist, Ad Hoc offers this from his murky pool of knowledge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ad Hoc
You need to establish what your stress is in all 3 axis .........
Clearly has no idea of von Mises criteria and yet wades in to the point that TYD gets totally p'd off. Nice welcome for a new member with some expertise to offer and now lost to the forum.

I will take great delight in watching the sport if you do your damnest to get rid off this negative no-hoper. I no longer waste my time but you seem more inclined to take on these challenges.

Rick W
  #34  
Old 03-24-2009, 07:52 AM
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wind_apparent wind_apparent is offline
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If I didn't know better I would think maybe Doug and Ad Hoc are one and the same, since I've never known anyone to actually ever hook themselves to Doug in any way........
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  #35  
Old 03-24-2009, 07:55 AM
Ad Hoc Ad Hoc is offline
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catsketcher
"...I am sure that the original designers and many of today's designers of multihulls do not crunch huge amounts of data. After building heaps of boats many builders become good designers as they have seen what does and what doesn't work..."

Absolutely, i also know several friends who are like this, designing yachts. Their designs have evolved very successfully this way. Yet they do not try and give the impression that they actually have done any number crunching nor do they continuously ignore very simple straight fwd Qs; they are open and honest about their ability/design. They say right from the outset, exactly as you have in your quote, that they haven't nor do they unprofessionally imply that they have by simple deflection....what has ones father's profession got to do with answering a technical question?

Then you get the "cut and paste out of context" and the "show me your pictures and and your gallery brigade"..yawn.
As if showing a picture of the number of designs one has done alters the question at hand?...it is just a standard deflection tactic to avoid answering a question...go figure! Just as all politicians do.

So for example, when a client asks me a Q why is XXX done that way....i suppose i could just say, show me how many boats you have designed or show me your website show me your qualifications, as if any of this in some way pacifies the Q or renders the Q not worth answering. But for the "show and tell brigade", it does oddly.

Either one can answer the Q or not...it isn't rocket science. At the end of the day, no design is perfect. Only the designer can justify the iterations done in order to arrive at the final solution. As such, to answer simple Qs about their rationale is neither positive nor negative, it is an enquiry. And that is of interest. More often than not, the final design is secondary.

However, if person X posts a designs and asks for comments, they should say only post a comment that I will like..otherwise why post the design for comment? Again, I don't understand this logic. Since a pretty picture is no different to judging a beauty contest, it is in the eye of the beholder!

If someone needs this forum to gain credibility in someones eyes, or their own or to lessen their insecurities that's fine, don't assume everyone one here's does.

Criticism can be both positive and negative. Professional engineers and naval architects understand this concept. I've had criticism at my designs both negative and positive for 20 years, to justfy it to my peers. Do i take it personally, no. I take it for what it is and either accept it or justify it. However, sometimes the negative could be written/said in a softer milder way. But this is generally disingenuous and often patronising to the recipient, if they are really wanting comments. More often than not, the mindset of someone who feels persecuted or insecure will automatically read more into a statement then is actually there. That cannot be helped, it is human nature.

As for "hooking" with another...again, I cannot help people that misinterpret what is written. That is down their comprehension. If I agreed with Rick I would say so, if I agreed with Doug I would say so. An agreement on one small single issue is not cart blanche acceptance of everything said or done. Again, how one arrives at that logic, is beyond me...
  #36  
Old 03-24-2009, 09:17 AM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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I'm going to try this again, as it needs to be done.

An Open Letter to Doug Lord


(previously sent 3-23-09)

Doug, I believe you said in one of your recent posts on this Solo16 thread... "You reap what you sow". Well, rather than get into another nonsense argument with you, I have an offer for you.

Any time you find it more than irritating to have my presence firmly in your face, you can simply do the following. Write me an email suggesting that you will cease your crapola if I, in turn, will similarly stop tossing grenades at your person. Yes, thatís right, Doug. Iím offering you a truce on every forum on which we mutually appear.

I'm suggesting this because it's time. Everyone here is going to benefit from this process. Use your gentleman's option in the matter and I will gladly lay-off on both Boatdesign and Sailing Anarchy.

If either one of us has an unnecessary, or poorly worded statement or query regarding the other, we agree to take it off list and deal with it as two guys who are looking to get to an understanding, privately. If it occurs to one of us that what we are about to ask on the public list has any potential for misrepresentation, then the correct process is to err on the side of caution and take it to a private email.

There's no need to keep this antagonism going any longer.

The agreement is binding on both fora.

I'll look for your letter in response and we can do this with a measure of personal respect, if not care. The ball is in your court.


Yes, Doug, Iím taking yesterdayís offer to the public pages of this Forum, minus your quoted email, which was filled with vitriol and profanity.

All of us here await your response. A suitable public demonstration of your willingness to seriously decrease the noise level on these pages is what all of us are looking for. You can offer-up your tirade again, which we will all see as a NO, You can ignore the offer, which, again, we will all see as a NOÖ. or you can graciously step into something like a new era in getting along with people on these pages and agree to these very simple and very fair terms. Unmistakably, we will all see this as a YES.

The ball, my friend, is firmly in your court.

As an addendum, this offer is also extended to you, Ad Hoc. Feel free to sign-on and take these pages to a new place.

Best Regards,
  #37  
Old 03-24-2009, 12:39 PM
Doug Lord
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Design

I think it is unfortunate that when reasonable questions are asked about a design, such as I have asked, that they are considered hostile in some way.
It would seem to me that part of the fun in learning about new designs would be in learning the technical basis behind the designers ideas. I would think that would be informative,interesting and could benefit all who read a particular thread.
---------
re so-called "open letter": I regard this with nothing less than contempt coming as it does from an individual who has personally attacked my work, my motives, my integrity often and in numerous threads. And that comes from an individual that once asked me for help and whom I went out of my way to help only to have a dagger in the back for my trouble. Dealing-again-with this person in any way whatsoever is completely out of the question.
  #38  
Old 03-24-2009, 12:53 PM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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All well and good, Doug, save for one important fact. The world does not run by your rules.

So, what are you going to do about the offer of a truce as shown above? Are you in agreement, or are you opposed to making this Forum a better place for everyone?

That is the real question on the table and the members await your response.
  #39  
Old 03-24-2009, 01:29 PM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
re so-called "open letter": I regard this with nothing less than contempt coming as it does from an individual who has personally attacked my work, my motives, my integrity often and in numerous threads. And that comes from an individual that once asked me for help and whom I went out of my way to help only to have a dagger in the back for my trouble. Dealing-again-with this person in any way whatsoever is completely out of the question.

There's blood everywhere, Doug. Simply stated, that's something that can not be changed, as it's gone in the past. What can be changed is the today and the tomorrow. If you travel away from an agreement of mutual truce, you make a bold statement of your intent in these matters. That fact is seen by all the members here as a declaration of your intent to maintain the noise level at the excrutiating point for the rest of us who love to participate here.

Frankly, I'm tired of the haggle, as are many, many others and that has prompted me to make the above declared offer.

You can continue to argue for your anger, or you can lay it down and work for something quite powerful for everyone concerned. This represents a chance for you to show the Boatdesign members that you are as interested in their well being and happiness, as much as you are in sharing your creative impulses with the same group. Perhaps you can find it in your head and your heart to honor something that has lasting value.

By refusing to call a truce to hostilities, you also show the members just what you think of them and what really matters most to you in the long and short of things. I'm of the opinion that life is too damn brief to be spending any more time going in this direction than has already been spent.

Our friendly and tolerant Boatdesign host, Jeff, must surely have a limit as to how much he will tolerate. He sees the numbers of site hits and he sees who is coming and going via membership and relative activity. Personally, I think he deserves a heck of a lot better than some regular bickering session.

As a result, you are, once again, invited to accept the fairly drawn conditions and then observe them mutually. You have everything to gain and only your anger to lose.

Of course, like anything in life, you can not truly be forced against your will to accept. This isn't Guantanamo.
  #40  
Old 03-25-2009, 11:02 AM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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The Devil is in the Details ??

Well, gang.... Clearly, the offer made to Doug for a complete cessation of hostilities has gone unanswered. Just as clearly, Doug is sending all of you a distinct message that he wants nothing to do with any concept which would benefit the whole Forum membership and establish a sincere level of decorum.

I wish it was different, but hey, not everything one tries in life is going to be received with open arms. So, I guess we'll just keep plugging along, finding ways to endure the endless harangues about foiling and any other stuff that comes along. Of course this will be accompanied by a continuous stream of foiling photos we have all seen before, collections of near useless data and relentless pronouncements of how foiling is the Second Coming of the sailing Jesus.
  #41  
Old 03-25-2009, 06:02 PM
Doug Lord
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So you thought he was sincere,huh?

This is the TYPICAL SA Ostlind-see what you make of it: posted 8 am this morning. Sorry to litter this place but this trash says more about this individual than ANYTHING I could ever say:

"Douglas, you're much too modest about your personally claimed accomplishments.

Just yesterday, I conducted a quick Google search for Doug Lord Inventor. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that Doug, at the age of fourteen months, had invented an asswiping device that quickly spread in popularity in the neighborhood where he and his family lived. Trouble was, not one single baby in that small American town could get it to work. Salvation arrived when they all began to speak and like a chorus, they all told Doug just how wonderful it was to have their asses wiped by his genius device.

Douglas beamed as any small child would when basking in the glow of peer group adulation. He took it so deeply to heart that he never bothered to verify the truth of the mulitude of claims. Not one toddler in the bunch were walking about with a clean ass crack! Doug soon discovered this reality when the collective butts of his friends soon over-powered every play date, no matter the newness of the train set or talking dog toys.

Refusing to admit that his invention had failed in the marketplace, Baby Douglas adopted the tactic that has seen him through ever since.... It doesn't matter what anybody else thinks or knows, it only matters what Doug claims the facts to be. Reality having been successfully damned, our boy, the toddling Douglas, made his way in life, never changing that one simple twisted paradigm that had gotten him through the baby canyon of death with only his secret knowing to nag him ever since.

I find it marvelously connective that Doug's inventions have grown ever more complex as he searches for the salvation that will free him from the personal terror of the failed ass wiping machine of his baby years. Unfortunately, none of his howling in the dark has been able to make these devices perform any better than the pitiful, butt crack gouging mechanism from long ago.

Guys, Doug has clearly had a tough life. Perhaps we should be more sensitive to his life long dilemma and give him a pass on all that he is?


Chris O "
  #42  
Old 03-25-2009, 06:27 PM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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Just a few things you may want to take in while you have your panties in a bunch...

1. You gave no response to the offer of a truce at SA. So, I take it that you want the gloves off over there, as well as here. You had a very nicely put together peace offer, which you refused to acknowledge. I take that, along with everyone over on that site and this one that you are going to proceed with the BS just as before. So, I engaged in a little bit of humor as a pre-emptive strike.

2. The response you gave on these pages was as nasty as a post can get here without going over the top and anyone can read that, unless Doug has already taken it down due to gross embarrassment. When someone is offered a truce and they express their disdain by stomping around and spitting out the words, it doesn’t really look like the offer was received with much grace.

3. In the vast pantheon of human experience, there have been many forms of personal expression; Comedy being but one. Within the comedic family of expressions, there is a very tasty environment called satire. If you read that post, it is directed at an abstract audience. The fact that you are offended shows that you have deeply rooted sensitivities completely devoid of a humor function.

When you get your act together and learn to laugh at your own behavior, you'll be headed, at least, in the right direction to regain some measure of your humanity.

By refusing to participate in the peace/truce offer, you mark yourself as a guy who is only interested in his selfish anger. All, I might add, at the expense of everyone here who just wants to talk boats and have a pleasant experience.

The truce offer is on the table and will remain there for the time being. Any time you want to opt-in to the program, just make your feelings known in a post right here on this thread. There’s a time for the putting down of the weapons and just learning to get along. I strongly suggest that you take full advantage of the previously discussed offer. It’ll make things so much nicer here and at Sailing Anarchy.
  #43  
Old 04-01-2009, 10:04 AM
davefried davefried is offline
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Nice design Chris. Will you be developing plans? Could you publish some drawings here or on your website?

Dave
  #44  
Old 04-17-2009, 07:25 PM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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Fresh Design Mods

After posting this design for comments and putting-up a companion article about the boat on my website, I received dozens of letters to my site and to my email inbox.

Many of the letters were enquiring about the implementation of a rig from a Hobie 14, as well as the use of a small outboard engine as auxiliary power.

The displacement potential of the original design did not include the use of an outboard and reserve fuel, so I went back into the design process and gave the boat a touch more displacement.

At the same time, I increased the main hull beam above the waterline to give a bit more interior space and I raised the deck height. I also visited the shapes of the amas. With the raised decks and aka mounting points, I could reshape the amas to a slightly more efficient form while maintaining the full buoyancy of the previous design. The new amas allow a very compact trailer beam which does not exceed 68" when all ready to hit the road.

The new displacement figure for the Solo16 S is 740 lbs., allowing for the use of a 2 hp four stroke, a few one quart fuel containers in addition to the onboard tank of the typical, 2 hp outboard and the mount necessary for the engine.

These changes pretty much take the Solo16 Sport to a place where it is very nearly ready for solo adventure cruising. The last component to be added will be a folding dodger setup with a zip removable aft section for bad weather sailing.

Below are some new renderings of the boat. I'll be adding another that shows the planned dodger system as soon as I can nab some time.

I want to thank everyone who made comments about the design concept, both here, at my website and directly to my email. It's great to hear from the folks who would have an interest in using a boat like this for their recreational sailing interests. It would be really nice to see the Solo16 Sport entered in next year's Watertribe Everglades Challenge. hmmmmm?
Attached Thumbnails
Solo16 Sport Trimaran-solo16-s-folded-trailering.jpg  Solo16 Sport Trimaran-solo16-aft-obl-w.jpg  Solo16 Sport Trimaran-solo16-bow-low-w.jpg  

Solo16 Sport Trimaran-solo16-s-high-obl-w.jpg  


  #45  
Old 04-17-2009, 09:56 PM
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TTS TTS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind View Post
I'm going to try this again, as it needs to be done.

An Open Letter to Doug Lord


(previously sent 3-23-09)

Well, rather than get into another nonsense argument with you, I have an offer for you.

Any time you find it more than irritating to have my presence firmly in your face, you can simply do the following. Write me an email suggesting that you will cease your crapola if I, in turn, will similarly stop tossing grenades at your person. Yes, thatís right, Doug. Iím offering you a truce on every forum on which we mutually appear.


Best Regards,
I applaud this move!
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