Sink or Swim??

[ancient kayaker]

Calm down guys!

While the majority of folk buy what they do and do what they do based on gut feel rather than cool reason, that's just democracy working. This thread is a good example of rational discussion, bright but not necessarily good ideas put forward for discussion, inputs based on experience, information on what really happens, interesting theory and emotion too. Where would we be without emotion? The desire for speed, size and sharp looks resides in the ancient parts of our brains, the part we inherited from reptiles, with other instincts evolved over eons in order to survive predation and compete for mates, territory and food.

Interesting note of Thom's about the claim that the Harry can't be capsized, but I saw a dock capsize on TV a few months back.

I recall my first (and only) capsize: all my fault of course, and rather emotional at the time, but amusing in retrospect. The thing we want to do is survive whatever nasty stuff might happen to our boat. It's not just a capsize, but also a run-down, collison, gear breakage, falling overboard, sickness on a long trip etc.

[Fanie]

Where would we be without emotion?

Probably sailing and fishing somewhere. It is our emotions keeping us bogged down at the job.

and rather emotional at the time

Mmm... sounds like you cried a lot Hope you didn't get too wet though
He he... couldn't resist.

The idea is to gather all ideas on something. Even if it doesn't make sense, it could trigger thinking into another direction, hopefully into one that offers solutions. We think and do as we are, and not always as we should.

[mydauphin]

The worst boat accident I ever had at least in its totality if not scale, and it was a learning experience, was the time I jumped on to my jon boat from my dock. I had all my fishing gear, engine, gas tank, cooler ready to go. I jump in it many a time but never in rear portion and never from so high. Anyway, everything except boat ended up in bottom of canal.

So the lessons.
It is not the boat but who jumps in it.
Don't be in a hurry to go boating better safe than sorry.
How you load boat is very important.
Don' overload boat.
Any boat is safe or unsafe depending on conditions and weather
A solution for most boating problems ... get a bigger boat...

[Zed]

Roll a mono and the odds are you lose a rig, flip a multi and you stay that way. Either way the odds are that you end up floating around without your main method of propulsion in need of assistance... something to be avoided but prepared for.

Rolling a mono is not actually that easy, I have tried on the odd occasion... you really do need the assistance of the right sort of wave at the wrong time. Anywhooo, I have never tried to flip a cat, aside from small ones which I have done with and without intent and varying degrees of glee and annoyance. All depending on if I was past the line and goofballing or not! Having sent small mutlis over their nose's I never want to do it in a big one!

I know there are lots of mono's I would never take to sea, and I'm sure just as many multis that I will develop a prejudice against! So yeah mydauphin, the devil is in the detail, its not so much a 'one is good one is bad thang' !

Chillax dudes...

[ThomD]

"Way to insult everyone who has posted on this thread! I suppose I better go
sell the boat now you know being an incompetent idiot and all."

Thanks! I commented of course, and I do feel insulted by my post.

To me this is a dead issue, and it is worth wondering how the discussion would have unfolded if a world renowned designer had started a thread in which he commented on the broadening acceptance of multihulls rather than focusing on the oldest canard there is. I am a little worried because he talks to many more potential users than I do, so I don't doubt there are those with such worries. But equally I run into people all the time who visibly shiver at the thought of riding a bicycle. The vast majority of people will never mater to multihulls at all. That numbers and credibility are increasing is the best we can hope for, and that is well in hand.

In the meantime we can count on the experts in the field to keep pumping air into all the arguments and documenting the many situations under which multihulls capsize, even if they themselves do not believe it to be likely. A truism in comunications is that the most inflmatory remark you make is not modified in the minds of most by the fact that you explained it away elsewhere in your remarks. This applies obviously in the case of quotes, but also in the reading people will naturally give to such remarks. Loose lips flip ships.

"Interesting note of Thom's about the claim that the Harry can't be capsized, but I saw a dock capsize on TV a few months back."

Sounds more like a monohull, it was lucky it didn't sink.

[rayaldridge]

Originally Posted by Zed

Having sent small mutlis over their nose's I never want to do it in a big one!

This is worth noting: there is a profound difference between beach cats and cruising multis. The sail area/displacement ratios for beach cats are enormous-- often well over 40. Cruising multis will have much more modest ratios-- even those cruising designs oriented toward performance.

It is perfectly true that most multihulls can be capsized very easily. It is also true that "most multihulls" are beach cats, which bear as much resemblance to a cruising multihull as an Oz skiff does to a cruising monohull.

[Zed]

Yes very true, that was just an oblique reference to the fact that toes over nose is the most common way that big multis go over.... albeit in quite different circumstances. Never something that I want to try!

[Chris Ostlind]

You guys are Wussies.

Sack up with your hull up.

;-)

[Zed]

Can you see the guy on the back BBQing?

[Doug Lord]

I'm not sure it has to be either or,sink or swim-perhaps there is a middle ground?
The fixed keel, twin rudder version was conceived of by Julian Bethwaite and Martin Billoch. The canting keel version was conceived of by Sean Langman..

[Zed]

There was a monomaran getting around on Lake Macquarie for a while, not sure if its still there. I'm sure others have tried it, you know mono pointy end morphing into a cat. No idea how it went! but its what I call middle ground... you might just call it a mongrel mono!

Doug, I think Richard was talking about 'groan up' boats, not dingy thungs... U know, wid a loo for you uld incontinent baby boomers!

[Doug Lord]

I think you're right Zed-both of these are 60 footers....

[Zed]

Cripes I can't see Ma, Pa & the kids cruising around in one of those.

[ancient kayaker]

Originally Posted by mydauphin

The worst boat accident I ever had at least in its totality if not scale, and it was a learning experience, was the time I jumped on to my jon boat from my dock. I had all my fishing gear, engine, gas tank, cooler ready to go. I jump in it many a time but never in rear portion and never from so high. Anyway, everything except boat ended up in bottom of canal.

...

I forgot another capsize I had at the dock, you reminded me. Very embarrassing this one. I had a sailing canoe that I had equipped with a neat little folding ama that I ws demonstrating to a guy, showing how stable it was by standing on the gunnel, forgot to lock the ama and, yes, you guessed it, it folded itself up neatly! By that time I had learned to laugh at these things ...

[Manie B]

The world of sailing will undergo more changes in the next 10 years than what has preceded in the last 200 years

The argument that a mono is slow and will sink is out the window.

The point that gunboat makes of speed - holds no water.

One fact that will always remain is that a cat when upside down STAYS upside down.

Can you see the guy on the back BBQing?

Also see that they are in sheltered waters - you can see the mountains in the background.

What drives me absolutely frikken nuts is when the gunboats of the world put out videos of them overtaking a very carefully selected opponent under very carefully selected conditions


Well all the gunboat Fans

try this for opposition

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiiSS...eature=related

a 6.5 m mono UNSINKABLE by Pogo in conditions that you will NEVER EVER SEE A GUNBOAT VIDEO

and the Pogo 40 could outrun a Gunboat 60
and all of that at 40% of the price


ultimately a faster passage is a safer passage (get there sooner)
and the modern flat skiff style mono's (Volvo - Vendee - Transat) will all have enough flotation to be unsinkable

If you can afford a 60 Gunboat all the power to you
for many of us a 8.5 Pogo is the real answer