Scarab 16

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Brorsan, Feb 6, 2011.

  1. Eric17
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    Eric17 Junior Member

    Brorsan, did you see the new boat Mark Gumprecht is building ? http://www.buildboats.com/bbdrifter.html#Drifter_17
    With so thin plywood, I think it will be a boat for protected waters, but a beautyful one ! And with an interesting wooden (or wood & foam) wing mast.
    For a plywood construction, the W17 by Mike Waters gives good ideas as well : a mix of these 2 boats would be nearly perfect...

    I was very glad to find your thread, as I have a very similar project of a modified Sc16 : http://www.nauticaltrek.com/12467-le-petit-poucet-version-eric17
    The page & forum are all in French, alas, and I'm not able to translate all this, but the drawings will give you an idea of what I'd like to do.
    I hope I will find the time to build a model next week, and to add a new page (on Sat 23rd ? I'll try).
     
  2. Brorsan
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    Brorsan Junior Member

    Eric, I'm looking forward for your model and new page(web page?).
    The first picture, what boat is that? (Trid19gt ?) google translate worked really badly on the translation of the page.
    How are you intended to you the boat?

    /Brorsan
     
  3. Eric17
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    Eric17 Junior Member

    "Petit Poucet 17"

    At the very beginning, our webmaster Jean Marc “launched” the idea of Petit Poucet (~Tom Thumb) as a mongrel of a Wetta14 and a Scarab16 : quite a small dayboat indeed ! But JMarc is very fond of 5 legged sheep : this tiny boat should be able to shelter 2 persons for the night (in tents on the tramps) when exploring remote islands, and to keep kids or wares dry and warm in a small shelter.
    At this time I had a project of a modified Scarab18, with stretched hulls and wave piercing bows : my first drawing “trid19gt”, but I accepted his challenge for a smaller one.

    The basis is a Scarab16 (I own both Scarab16 & Scarab18 plans), but with much more rocker, to add buoyancy under the cockpit : I believe it’s better than broad hulls like on Astus or Virus tris.
    The boat should be built of foam & fibre with round bilges, with a dory section vaka, like on many big tris : pictures in the thread show my sources of inspiration.
    After a month of drawing and comments, I proposed this sketch :


    Very small scale, lot of discordances between the “3 sights” : I had to draw a real plan ! But as I don’t like the 3D / CAD images, I decided to build a model. And after two months of unexpected works and disturbations, I finally started today…
    You understand how glad I was to find 6 pages of reflections and comments on exactly the same theme
     

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  4. Brorsan
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    Brorsan Junior Member

    Are you designing to build one for yourself, design for a customer, or for the pure fun of designing boats?

    What purpose will the boat mainly be used for? Mostly daysailing and some weekends for 1-2 persons?

    Kind regards
    /Brorsan
     
  5. Eric17
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    Eric17 Junior Member

    Hi Brorsan,

    well... 1 and 3, but why not 2 ? :)

    3 / no doubt I enjoy designing boats (like you seem to do, after what I saw on other threads).
    2 / Not to sell plans, certainly not, I don't have the competence for that.
    but I would like to achieve a complete set of plans, maybe with the help of a professional designer.
    1/ Yes I really would like to build this boat. The main question is : will she be big enough for me ? I'm 20 cm taller than Megwin (& more than 20 years older I fear), and my weight is a just over &#,¤@ kg.
    My first idea was the 19', which would fit better I think. I bought the Scarab16 plans 2 years ago, just before the Scarab18 arrived. And Ray Kendrick very kindly sold me the 2nd plan for half the price.

    But just after this I moved out to a smaller house, my car box is full like a fresh egg (have to walk like on egyptian hieroglyphs to go through)...

    I think a very small & easily trailerable boat would be great for singlehanded weekends around "Ile de Re", maybe a bit more (Britanny is 400 km from where I live, for instance).
    And we have a very active team of trimaran camper-racers in France, with the "Tri-Speed-Cup", I would like to join them !

    Eric

    PS : I tried 'google translation' of my page on 'Nautical Trek' :-D :-D :-D
    The poor thing has a lot of problems with my slang/ dialect/ humor ! Maybe I should use a more conventional langage, indeed !
     
  6. ThomD
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    ThomD Senior Member

    I think Ray is channeling the work of several designers who left the Wharram fold, but only so far. That may have been OK a long time ago, but we are well over 12 years into the free Plyboats type software, and anyone ought to be able to design a hull nicer than that. It sure looks a lot better with the paint.

    The main justification for those kinds of hull was the belief they were more seaworth, which was largely based on the idea that racier hulls where the cause of various capsizes, as opposed to the reasonable response to the problems of racing at high speeds. Whatever you believe there isn't much reason to look at the needs of a Wharram Tike 46 say, or an ocean going tri, when designing a pocket cruiser. Boats at the smaller end are a rule to themselves, and even a few feet difference in length is cause for rethinking an awful lot of their specific designs.

    I see no real improvement in these Wharramesque hull shapes, that simultaneously put pressure on wetted area and accom, and displacement, for very small boats. So my comment is really mostly a form follows function thing, as I see it. I agree there are limits as to what will look like an 80 foot boat in a 20 foot one. Whenever my eye catches, a nice "simple" cat in the pages of Multihulls International, it more often than not turns out to be 80'+. :) But there are nice shorter boats also, I like the Scarab 18, and so far it appears to look sleek at 18. Need to see some new photos.
     
  7. ThomD
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    ThomD Senior Member

    On Tortured Ply, it is a great method. It is ridiculously simple to make amas that way, and they seem to work out great. A lot has been written about hull shape control but it is largely nonsense. It is a bit like the multihull capsize thing. It just keeps hanging in there. The Gougeons have a bad track record with this stuff, they tell it like it is and people just jump on the negative. So they described the process for TP, and it scared people away, they described their philosophy on cat building and people couldn't run fast enough, they were not in the plan selling business, and they seem pretty straight anyway, but they sorta killed the interest.

    It is true it is kinda not modern. If one describes the various changes that have taken place in boat building over the last 20 years, a lot of them drift a little away from TP. And example is that computer design is great for the designs, lofting, tooling, and hydro. You really get very little of that with TP, but you do get those enhancements flowing through to both taped ply, or strip, or foam. Modern designs are also sometimes really complex with curves and bulges on top of curves and bulges. A lot of this stuff might be pretty crazy for a home builder to emulate, the fat sleek amas you can get with TP, fully U shaped, etc, large volume, super light, are the bomb, but they are not going to look like the amas on a million dollar boat of today.

    I would embrace TP amas, in this size range, and in low resistance cat hulls, but I would not use them on a 16' tri main hull. I said that if I built a Scarab 18 it would be nuts not to use TP hulls on it, but having seen the plans I would loose some displacement where it would do some good, so I am realizing I may have been wrong on that one. :)
     
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ================
    Eric, that is one of the best looking small cruising trimarans I've ever seen!
    Best of luck....
     
  9. ThomD
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    ThomD Senior Member

    There is a cause for concern. :) Though I suppose it supports my contention the Scarab isn't bad looking, since it is pretty much an overlay.

    16 footers are kinda an example of my thinking on this mater. I weigh 230ish can be higher. In even in my 24 footer I have to keep my weight well forward in the cockpit, and even the hatch. Extra people on board and I need to have them place ahead of me. So it looks great in the pics, but let's see the weight distribution curve and the displacement curve for the boat. I am big on the idea of a center cockpit on small boats. They need to be designed very carefully, not just drawn. This might be an app for some kind of foil Doug, in order to get them sailing level.
     
  10. Eric17
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    Eric17 Junior Member

    good looking tin can

    Thank you Doug, but please stop, my ankles are swelling !!

    (In French, and very likely ancient Greek and Latin before : “have swollen ankles” = Draw an exaggerated pride of a transient success. Just a pun on Oedipus Οἰδίπους Oidípous, whose name means "swollen foot” in Greek, and the fact that this man was always confident in his judgments and did not put them back in question. thanks to Wikipedia + google translation :-\)

    In fact, after Megwyn comments and Brorsan inverse sheer drawings, I ask myself how I will manage to insert my belly in this tin can…
    Sitting headroom won’t be sufficient, even with open hatch
    With my shortened cubby, I won’t have any space for my knees, not speeking of an even microscopic galley…
    What should I do : sacrify this sitting place, and only keep a single bunk, or leave it for children ?

    And I think you'r right, ThomD.
    My PP17 is just a modified Scarab16,
    I added rocker and shortened the cubby to add buoyancy and and give the possibility to sit more forward, and Megwin's testimony confirms it's useful, but I'm not sure it will be enough. The final design will permit to draw the ... ahem : "areas curve" ? or "volume distribution curve" ?

    Well, first go to sleep, it's 6 hour later here :) !
     
  11. idkfa
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    idkfa Senior Member

    Having a submerged transom will increase displacement at the stern.
     
  12. Eric17
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    Eric17 Junior Member

    Challenge

    But idkfa I do not intend to design a submarine! :eek:

    Designing a micro cruiser with both cockpit and cabin looks like an impossible challenge : Paradox versus Scamp, Sardine Run versus Cross18 or W17.
    Ray Kendrick has tried, but after Megwyn is a bit tight, Kurt Hughes’s Trikala19 with a small doghouse could be a good answer (but it's a 19'), and Mark Gumprecht is currently making the attempt : wait ...

    My duckling looks good because, with his rounded shapes, it looks – at least in profile - like a cute baby Farrier, but I really need to make a model to go further…

    But now I'm a little embarrassed : I did not intend to hijack Brorsan’s page, and I'd better work on my project. :eek:
    I asked JMarc, Nautical Trek webmaser, how to add an English translation (at least an improved version of Google, even if still a bit butchered) to my page, it would be more correct: wait, again ...
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2011
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  13. idkfa
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    idkfa Senior Member

    This is also a submerged transom.
     

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  14. Brorsan
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    Brorsan Junior Member

    Eric, No one "own" a thread, and your thoughts and ideas are only doing good to this thread. I'm very interested, and i think people who finds this thread also will find your project inspiring. Keep it up!
     

  15. Eric17
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    Eric17 Junior Member

    lost in translation !

    Megwyn, (or any other person of good will!)

    I'm trying to translate your testimony (to put it on the “scarab16” page of our French site), but even if it’s much easier this way, I still have a few problems!

    Could you tell me what a "washboard" is on a boat, and what a "hydro" lake is?

    Thank you :)
    Eric
     
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