Reinventing the Wheel for Recycling

[Boston]

Originally Posted by ProtectTheOcean

You guys are a real riot. You should do comedy.

For 3 decades, while some of you have been adding to the ocean's woes, me and MY ilk have been part of the solution. Now I turn to you supposed design experts for PRACTICAL ways to rethink the wheel, and what I get is a bunch of "it'll never work" and sarcasm. Guess I shouldn't have expected more or better, but I DID specify CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions. Negative people will always be part fo the problem.

As for being late to the Green revolution, on a personal level, I'm one of the ones who started it in the first place,so you may want to know what you're yammering about before you attempt to wax clever.

So long, and thanks for the fish. I'd have thought design people would be able to think outside of the box a bit better than the usual idyuts. My mistake. Won't happen again.

I think I qualify as the "environmental nut" in here, just ask around. My paper on plastics vs glass and plastics waist in the oceans pretty much covers the range of issues you mention plus a bunch more considering what our oceans are facing today when it comes to plastic. We have filter feeders starving to death is a sea of plankton not because there isn't enough plankton but because they are not designed to separate particles by whats edible and whats non edible, they just ingest everything and since plastic now outweighs plankton in our oceans by something over 13/1 they end up expending so much energy digesting things that have no food value that they simply starve to death. Deal is if you want to collect a bunch of old plastic and try building something out of it fine but you would better serve the environment by spending your money on a gasification system that would burn the stuff for fuel in a boat you could be proud of cause you swimming in fuel and you'd be eliminating plastic completely from the oceans rather than just maintaining the problem. Deal is, the way your going at it, not "that" your going at it. My personal choice was to build with alternative fuels in mind, plastic could be an alternative fuel if you had the right engine and processing system set up. High temp systems already exist with which to do this so go for it and actually make a difference. Following a been there done that plan thats not exactly famous for its success and that in the end does nothing to "eliminate" plastics and plastics residue from the oceans is hardly an ecologically minded plan.

Welcome to the group
Stick around
read up
learn a bit and then maybe you will be able to make a rational decision on this plastics thing, but if you really want to be of help, find a power system that uses plastic as fuel, its got lots of BTU's and you'd have more fuel than you could ever know what to do with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbNou...eature=related

start doing some research and pretty soon you'll realize there's better ways to eliminate plastics from the environment, which is what really needs to be happening, than just rapping it up in a different package. About the only thing thats going to help is to burn it at temps high enough to break down the toxins and free up the fuel.

cheers
B

[whitepointer23]

Originally Posted by ProtectTheOcean

You guys are a real riot. You should do comedy.

For 3 decades, while some of you have been adding to the ocean's woes, me and MY ilk have been part of the solution. Now I turn to you supposed design experts for PRACTICAL ways to rethink the wheel, and what I get is a bunch of "it'll never work" and sarcasm. Guess I shouldn't have expected more or better, but I DID specify CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions. Negative people will always be part fo the problem.

As for being late to the Green revolution, on a personal level, I'm one of the ones who started it in the first place,so you may want to know what you're yammering about before you attempt to wax clever.

So long, and thanks for the fish. I'd have thought design people would be able to think outside of the box a bit better than the usual idyuts. My mistake. Won't happen again.

thanks, i always wanted to be a comedian. while i agree with you that recycling plastic is important, just because you are not getting the answers you want doesn't mean you have to insult people. i am not an expert or designer but there are a lot of professionals on here that give excellent replys if you don't ruffle their feathers all the time.

[Boston]

if you really want to do something for the environment convert a barge into a waste plastic processing platform and sell diesel off of it. Some govornments are even subsidizing these kind of efforts and the systems are already designed. Its pretty much just a mater of doing it. I run my truck on WMO, WVO, just about any waste oil will work, thing would probably run just fine on Plastics based diesel as well, maybe even better depends on the BTU value of the stuff. I'll be doing the same with the boat, hell I might even build a plastics processing system into it eventually. My present build is to small to accommodate that type of system but by knowing what type of diesel to put in it I can pretty much be assured it will run fine off alternative fuels. IDI naturally aspirated, mechanical IP

Basically all the systems do is use heat to break down trash into its constituent components, fluids gasses and solids. Burn the gasses to provide the heat to run the system collect the solids and the liquids, in the case of things like plastic and tires those liquids are the oil that was used to create them in the first place. No reason in the world you couldn't figure out what the minimum sized system and use it on a boat. One rogue net and your looking at a ton of feed stock.




You could spend a day collecting crap off any beach and end up with a weeks fuel, might even get paid for it. I think its something like 30 lbs plastic produces one gallon of fuel and within ten feet of the people on that beach is got to be say 100 lbs of plastic

I collect waste oils and blend a pretty dam good fuel thats got my truck running like a bat out of hell. No reason in the world why you couldn't make a similar system work for any pleasure boat.

cheers
B

[philSweet]

One rogue net and you're looking at a ton of feed stock.

If you could train dolphin to locate rogue nets you would be using fish to catch nets from which you make oil. The irony of that has a certain appeal.

[Boston]

best thing to do with plastic is not to produce it in the first place

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,6533047,00.html

[Thames]

I just found a foam core material for boat building that is made from recycled plastic bottles: http://www.armaflex.com/WWW/armacell...2576E20052A2B3

[Thames]

More specific link: http://www.armaflex.com/www/armacell...enGB042010.pdf

I emailed them, and got this reply:

We only have "virgin" quality which means..............not recycled. PET as such is a foam which can be recycled ............if it's made from a "virgin" PET raw material or a recycled raw material.

Only for very big project we can discuss about producing foam made from second generation PET.

Armacell International GmbH
16-09-2011

Since I'm designing a small boat, not an off-shore wind farm, this doesn't sound promising. Does anyone know where recycled foam core can be bought in small quantities?

[upchurchmr]

Looked like a very interesting product for recycling of the PET bottles. Their advertising even shows it being made form recycled bottles.
Then they blow it.

On the other hand I don't think PET will make a good bond with the typical epoxies we use. If they thought so they would show some sandwich panel comparisons. Perhaps I missed it in the ad copy. One of the typical problems of all cores is separation of the core from the skin under high load or impact.
Most manufacturers offer sample kits so you can try out the material. Didn't see any.

Overall raised my hopes for a use for all those bottles. Sorry to see it wasn't real.

Boston, what temperature is required to break down the plastic so you can use the volatiles for fuel?

[Thames]

Yes it is disappointing. I'm hoping it will become more readily available with economies of scale. It would be great if some major boat building supplies company could order a large enough quantity for them to make it from the recycled bottles.

They could probably slice the finished foam into several different thicknesses, so you could buy a massive batch of 1cm, 2cm, 4cm etc then sell it on at a premium, being the only supplier with 100% recycled marine-grade foam core.

I found some technical data but they don't mention adhesion strength to epoxies:

http://www.armaflex.com/www/armacell...%20PET_TDS.pdf

[Thames]

Great news! I spoke too soon, since their email last September they've now made recycled foam core available in smaller quantities. I wrote them again today and got this reply:

When you wait long enough ;-) new qualities become available.

Attached the new Technical data of the 3 types of PET foam we produce.
The W/GR is a foam produced from regenerated PET.

Our min. order is € 500,-/shipment.
Please let me know what qty and thicknesses yo would need and we can check if this is more than this € 500,-

The W/GR is available in 80kg/m3 and 115kg/m3.

Here's the technical data sheet, look at the last page 'ArmaFORM PET GR': Armacell_PET_foam_core_2012.pdf

I don't understand the numbers but the only significant difference I see is that the recycled PET has a much lower shear strength than the virgin PET shear strength. What does this mean in the context of a foam core boat?

[upchurchmr]

There are two different properties shear and compression.

Shear is the primary method by which the sandwich panel provides the stiffness and then has enough strength to not fail under load. So you need to look at both properties (stiffeness and strength) compared to other foams or honeycomb.

Compression is important in impacts. Also if you are uninformed enough to put a bolt thru a core panel without inserting something with higher stiffness and strength in the local area. There are high density foams that are said to work for this, I haven't tried them, personally.

Basically 1/3 shear strength means there is a serious concern about the use as a core. A specific design might work well, but that usually means heavier skins - I.E., not depending on the core very much or a really lightly loaded design.

[Boston]

while its great to see people recycling this stuff, there are many plastics, ling PVC and the like, that are wholly unsuitable for recycling. All in all, alternatives to plastic should be sought out whenever possible. For instance there is a great epoxy called ecopoxy that is made from peanut oil instead of petroleum oil, costs about the same as West Systems product and is supposed to be completely non toxic.

Anyway best of luck with you small boat project ;-) have fun with it
cheers
B

[upchurchmr]

Made from peanut oil? Isn't that really cheap? Like in peanut butter? How come it costs so much? I suppose everyone gets to gouge the masses. Of course if you put Eco in your ads you can double the price. Is this going to be like corn alcohol in gasoline? Actually costs more, corrodes the car parts and damages the plastic parts. But somebody sold politicians a bill of goods. You should have seen the motorcycle mechanic describing how a large part of his business came from the damage the alcohol did, and still does. What is/ was the total Ecological cost of that scam?

So how does this go - a great epoxy and is suppose to be non toxic? Perhaps we ought to wait until it is a little more proven. Properties, longevity, and toxicity. I remember it took a little while before reports of problems surfaced with epoxy.

Do you think the people with peanut allergys should use this stuff?

Sorry, Im tired of miracle cures.

[Boston]

actually it costs a bit less that the West system stuff. So I'm thinking its a pretty reasonable price given its just a small company making a one off product.

Its been out for years, and its been used in just about everything petrol based epoxy is used in. I contacted them a while ago and they offered me a pretty good discount if I bought in 48 gallon drums for the boat project.

as for the "supposed" to be nontoxic part. When I see independent research peer reviewed and published then I'll believe something is "nontoxic", I never take the manufacturers word for it, regardless of how well intentioned they may be.

Miracle cure, no, peanut based eco friendly epoxy without all the hypersensitivity issues as petrol based epoxy, yes. And it does come with a warning for people with peanut allergies.

[cavalier mk2]

And to think you could say you got your glue for peanuts......