Question about Lively 28 Hartley plans

[boat fan]

Originally Posted by uncleralph

How do you conclude that it would be better with outriggers? A monohull is not made better by simply making it into a trimaran. In fact just the opposite is true. I think you would run into all kinds of problems making this boat into a multihull. For instance:
1. The boat has 2,000 pounds of ballast, which you neither need or want in a trimaran. When you eliminate the ballast the boat will no longer be floating on its proper lines.
2. The structure is not designed to take the concentrated loads of the cross beams.
These are just two examples. I am sure there are many more complications.

If you like the boat and it fits your needs, build it as designed. It will not be made better by adding training wheels.

OOOH BOY !!!!!!

Please take note of the quoted post. All true and damned good advice for free.

[PAR]

blackdaisies
Not a sailor yet, not a boat owner yet, still looking for plans

Before designing boats, or in this case re-designing them, it would be good advise to get aboard a few, sail them, develop a clue about how they work and why things are done the way they are, don't you think?

[kim s]

Blackdaises,

I think I am possibly the only one on this forum who has one of these boats.
I bought dirt cheap as its rotten and have now replaced 60-70% of the ply plus quite a few stringers , deck beams etc.
I cant tell you about it cos I aint sailed it yet, but (and I dont mean to put dispershuns On your boat building ability) looking at the construction and the time required to build it, I would say you would have to absolutly certain that it was one of these boats you REALY REALY wanted.
Its deffinatly dated and there are no doubt a Lot better boats out there.
I bought it cos it was cheap. by the time I have finished re-building it will cost me approx £4000 and thats before I buy new sails.
4 grand and a lot of hours labour I could possibly have built something far better, who knows, I dont care, cos I am having fun doing this one, so I view it 4 grand and a lot of fun and I end up with a 28 ft tri. never break any speed records but as long as its quicker than same sized uni-hulls RESULT
Yes I know all you proffesional building guys will be choking on your coffee, and shaking your experienced heads collectivly, but, hey I have saved a nice old boat, give her a new lease of life etc etc.
Seriously though Blackdaises, of all the things other guys have said ,
learn to sail, go on as many different craft as possible, make a list of what you and your partner/famiy want out of the boat (standng head room, seperate toilet, hot/cold running water/ jacuzzi, full length bath, 3 doulble cabins, pool table, champagne bucket, gold plated taps etc etc. and you will find that very few boats will actaully fit the bill.
Good luck in your hunt and enjoy the hunt as well as the build/sail.

Kim

[blackdaisies]

http://www.catamarandesigns.com/lotek.htm


This seems to be very new, trailerable, and I certainly don't want gold plated toilets, etc., I just want headroom and a safe easy to build multihull. Trimaran plans are limited, but catamaran above is trailerable and easy to build. Key words trailerable, head room is icing on the cake.

I found a nice one one from the urls on the other page made by Wood designs that are trailerable.

http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/

The cost is important, but safety is best in mind, a proven safe boat, not like the new one above, but it's just a question about it, if it's safe. I really feel a multihull is safer if it can be disassembled in the water if it turn upside down, it floats safer on mulithulls, gets better speeds, and can take down to fit a regular slip. Catamarans are not as attractive, but they work better by my opinion.

Million and millions of islanders who sailed the oceans in groups of canoes can't be wrong either. They made it safe on cheap safe little boats put together by beams. I don't want an islander canoe, but my point is if a canoe can become a great safe source of sailing even then, the modern multihulls have to better than a monohull. Islanders were great sailors.

The concept is cheap, so are most multihulls to build, cheaper than a monohull. Save money and get better buoyancy, plus safety, so I just want a cheap non decorational multihull that is trailerable. The issue of head room came up with the Piver because that is way too small, but a good boat. The original design I mentioned from Hartley is a boat known for traveling around Australian waters very efficiently. The picture is of a wood version. I wrote the owner of the site to ask more about it. I don't see how you might think it would be dangerous when so many boats were built with no major complaints, but no photos available.

It's cheaper is not the Hartley's best feature, it's the headroom and it's good reputation. I'm trying to find a boat without so much expensive electrical work. I want a sailing only vessel to keep cheaper on the water, no insurance needed unless their is a motor on the vessel. I do want some electrical, but not the newer designs who basically build a house in a boat. No electric washer/dryer, no jacuzzi, just headroom and simple electrical.

Kim S, which one of the boat are you talking about, the 30 footer from Selway or another, the 28 foot Hartley? I would expect rebuilding a boat would be more expensive than buying a new one, which is why building one would be better. I could buy a lemon that would sink the next day due to termite damage. Wood is easily damaged. I know what I'm getting if I build the thing myself.

How about the low-tec design at the beginning of this post? What is your opinion of this?

[kim s]

I have the Hartly-- Lively 28 or Sparkle seams to be the other name.

I am strugling to see how you say rebuilding is more expensive than new build.
OK I understand that the time to remove the old rotten bits and make pattens etc etc can be HUGELY time consuming. as far as material cost though I have the mast , rigging, the frames are all there. but a seaworthy hull is only approx 10% of the total cost of the boat. with a multihull these numbers are different.
I understand the idea of a" back to basic" boat, I too am going the low tech way if possible. but ---hey--- hang on. 2 decent stainless oil lamps (cheaper than brass) £80.00. ropes for the mast £400. New main track £250. Echo sounder £100 (i need one where i sail) new galley cooker /water pump £150 at a jumble sail. New forhatch £200. thats before I even start costing the sails new standing rigging. I still need tramp nets pullys/ blocks/ cleats/jammers/fenders/shorelines/anchor lights/nav lights oohhh the list is endless. if you buy a secondhand boat hopefully a lot of these bits will be on and just require a clean and rebuild. yes you do have to sort out the main hull but at least that has had all the design issues and the badly drawn plans and the vague instructions allsorted out.
I think as I am writing this I am not sure if I am convincing you are actually convincing myelf I have done the right thing.
what ever you do----- go for it

Kim s

[blackdaisies]

http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesign...rice_order.htm





http://www.edhorstmanmultihulldesign...I-25_3view.pdf

This one might be found being they are very popular and I see what you mean, but buying a used one, stripping it, putting old stuff in new wood hull, would still mean building the hull.

No doubt you did the right thing, but they probably are not found in Tennessee, USA. I'm on the loop in Tennessee, where sailing isn't as popular especially in a trimaran. I doubt they would no what to do with a funny looking boat like a trimaran.

I like the tristar ALOT! It looks safe too and doable for what I want, but in the 25 foot range for the 2 extra feet of space.

Thanks for the list of things to look for in a boat!

You say oil lamps, but not the cheap ones at a Walmart store for $15.00? Also what about building those little outdoor lights with a solar panel in-built in the roof of the boat? You have the on and off switch on the inside, but the solar panel on the outside:



http://www.improvementscatalog.com/h...ent-light.html

[kim s]

when you say $15 dollers for an oil lamp I gues you mean the "hurricane" type. if they are the same thing as we get over hear for £5-£10----DONT

I had one given to me and I stupidly put it on the boat.
They are made of tin and rust very quickly around the bottom. the rust stains are one thing, but its the oil stains from the leaking tank that really gave me grief. It got every where as I did not realise where it was coming from. If you buy one, make sure its a proper one not a cheap copy.
I dare say some one will have found a way of stopping them rust. but me ---never again. sails, covers, fender socks,ropes. everything that was in the cockpit locker.
I am not sure about led for long evenings inside theboat. (I am in ukso weather not consistan) the light is a bit harsh. dont get me wrong I like them and will be fitting led stuff on the boat, but main lighting is going to be oil. ---task lighting---led.
Good luck on the hunt

Kim

[blackdaisies]

That is a good way to keep it simple, but just guessing on the hurricane lamps. There are brass ones available within the price range you said first off, but some cheaper.

The led light above will last 8 hours in one charging, but 2 or 3 in one cabin means once charged they will give up to 24 hours. There probably are other boat lights available for this.

Have you ever heard of solar powered navigational lights? How about the likelihood of a methane run generator on a boat? It might be a little more weight? Is methane available at local boat mooring gas tanks?

Strider - 24ft Classic Micro




http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/

What about this? Is this more up to date than any of the others?

[boat fan]

This seems to be very new, trailerable

http://www.catamarandesigns.com/lotek.htm

That 50 footer , " trailerable " ? No not really.
Transportable after considerable effort to dismantle it ? Maybe...........
Costly to move which ever way you look at it ? Definately !

I really feel a multihull is safer if it can be disassembled in the water if it turn upside down

In a cruising boat size ? Are you Superman ?
That would be a costly salvage job at the very least. Even then it`s likely you would lose the rig....

gets better speeds, and can take down to fit a regular slip

Most cruising cats out there are not faster than a fast mono.

Reason : Most are over loaded .They are only fast when LIGHT.

It takes considerable discipline to " stay lean " ( light ) with a multi , it can be done , but the reality is most are weighed down. Ask the folk who cruise on them.

In light air they can be slower than a mono .( Higher drag ) and slower to tack.

I don`t know what you mean when you say " take down " to fit regular slip , but it suggests hinges or sliding tubes etc. to reduce beam. That alone will be more costly.
If you hinge the beams , they will need to be engineered to cope with considerable loading.If you want to reduce overall width , with sliding tubes , its a big chore every time you " park " in a slip.

Million and millions of islanders who sailed the oceans in groups of canoes can't be wrong either. They made it safe on cheap safe little boats put together by beams.

They often had drownings actually.
Not all " made it safe on cheap safe little boats put together by beams."

Islanders were great sailors.

Yes they are / were..........But they also lost craft and crew in the past.

The concept is cheap, so are most multihulls to build, cheaper than a monohull.

Most Multihulls are more expensive to build than any equivalent mono.

Build a very basic Wharram for example , the cost may surprise you , and I`m am talking BASIC !You can build a mono for the same outlay , more likely for less.


Reason: Example : A cruising catamaran : A lot more surface area .
More " structure" ( beams , bridge deck , dual rudders ,dual " keels" or dagger boards , etc , etc.....Bridge deck .......
Even down to paint , or glass sheathing ....surface area again

Having said all that .....I like cruising cats and tris , ....better than a mono ....but cheaper ....no way !!!!!

Don`t be put off by what appears to be my negative comment , it`s not meant to be blackdaisies , I sincerely hope you get you dream boat , but
there are issues with a cruising multihull that you should not under estimate.

[boat fan]

Also what about building those little outdoor lights with a solar panel in-built in the roof of the boat? You have the on and off switch on the inside, but the solar panel on the outside:

Yes that can work....have seen a 25ft wharram with them.
The young lad had solar " garden " lights all around the bridge deck .
Worked like a charm.

10 pack .....$ 3.00 each

[Manie B]

We already have one poster that is having problems getting detailed plans after he laid out good bucks

Gato Especial Catamaran Adventures

read my post #9

now you have this at the bottom of the page

CATAMARAN DESIGN KNOWLEDGE BASE

hull types hull materials construction techniques sail rig types seaworthiness
coming soon coming soon coming soon coming soon coming soon

http://www.catamarandesigns.com/index.htm

jeez guys please start reading a bit more carefully BEFORE you order plans


here is a VERY GOOD TIP

you want cat plans go here (and no he is not my uncle)

http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/

good solid reliable excellent track record - MANY to chose from


you want small runabouts and lots more go here

http://www.bateau.com/index.php


there are others but these two come out tops - time and time again

[boat fan]

Originally Posted by blackdaisies

Strider - 24ft Classic Micro




http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/

What about this? Is this more up to date than any of the others?

Yes nice boat. Good designer too.



If you want a good minimalist multi , this is certainly worth a look too :



http://www.harryproa.com/harry.htm

[guzzis3]

"Blackdaisies",

Please listen to what Richard Woods has said. The ideas your sharing are quite common to people new to multihulls, and if you follow some of the ideas you have expressed you'll end up well out of pocket and with a disapointing result.

I have the hartley plans, and know some people with them. They are not bad boats, but they like all your options are limited by your expectations.

As Mr Woods said you really need to asses your expectations, quantify them properly.

You mentioned live aboard. Full time ? You mention trailering. The hartly could be made to trail. I worked out you could make it fold telstar style and get it under 8', but be aware that launching and recovering a boat like that is not trivial.

Cost and ease of build ? I can assure you that any multihull of a given weight, fitout and finish will cost almost exactly the same in a given build method. What that means is any design built in plywood that weighs say 1 tone will cost pretty much the same as any other 1 tone in ply. Also someolder designes can take signifigantly longer to build than more modern designes. How much is your time worth ? Remember that hartley will take at least 1500 hours to get on the water. Think hard about how much time your able to spend each week and you'll soon see your going to be building for years.

Personally I really like Mr Horstman's stuff, he's a very clever man and I believe an aeronautical engineer. You might also consider Mr Kendrick's Avalon 9 design. Search on Kendrick trimaran or Team Scarab. Of course Mr Farriers F32A would do everything you want, but it'll probably cost more than you can afford. The F82A and Kendrick scarab 8 are both smaller and thus cheaper alternatives.

Please don't buy plans from catamerandesignes. I don't know of anyone who has anything good to say about them. Mr Waller has his coral coast 25 which is demountable, and of course you've found Mr Woods site. If you want something more stylish Mr Wharram has a range of self build catamarans in the polynesian style. For smooth water you might consider something like a jarcat J6.

Plans represent about 1% of the build cost. Cheap plans are a false economy. Please don't underestimate how much a modern well supported set will save you both in money time and anguish.

[blackdaisies]

I will buy the Strider 25 from Woods, but I just now started buying for my little 16 foot pocket cruiser, so I'll start and finish it before I build something bigger and more expensive. I bought the plans for the Grey Swan on SelwayFisher, but it's a monohull. I really wanted a trimaran. A nice one would be light and easy to sail. Balance and safety would be the main reason to get a trimaran/catamaran for new sailors. I just thought for safety reasons it would be better.

I bought those plans a few months ago, but am just now getting to shop for supplies. In all the safety issue is if the multihull turns over, it will be the least safest. I'll go with that, but get the plans for Woods Strider in a few months to keep for when I get my first boat done. It's not a tri, but a good catamaran, so that is great.

Any thoughts on buying wood? My local hardware store doesn't carry marine plywood, is it good to build boats with regular 3/8 inch plywood or is there a way to treat it? I can order treated wood, but would rather buy it locally.

Thanks for all the great advice and help. As far as turning any boat over that is larger than one person can handle, I've been reading about torch and a small rowboat out about 50 or more feet with a rope attached to one end of the hull and might be able to right one section of a catamaran or trimaran at a time, but not a boat 50 feet long. A daggerboard on each side of the small boat would help stabilize it while I pull. Leverage can do great things. I also read how you can use your mast to pull up a heavy portable outboard motor with a single person.

The Avalon 9 is the most modern affordable pattern I've seen. Some are in the thousand dollar range, and I didn't want to go that high for boat plans. The avalon is more expensive than what I wanted, but it would be the most modern and probably the best choice. I'll try the Strider and if in about 5 years I want something more modern, I'll get the Avalon 9. I don't see too many people making any new tri plans, so in about 10 or so years, the plans we see now will mostly be the only ones available.

If you want to know of live aboard situation, I'm a caregiver for elderly people, and sometimes it may be live-in. In a different type of job in Virginia, I got in a fight with my roommates and ended up calling home to move all the way back to Tennessee, had no where in Virginia to go, so the next adventure where I move away from home, I'll have a backup plan. Sounds strange, but it would have made a world of difference then to have had one for temporary living arrangements. If you haven't figured out yet that I'm an indecisive female, with lots of brothers, uncles, and a father who can do woodworking, and this is my first adventure in boat building. Even a female should be able to build this small easy to build boat, if not, I can get lots and lots of help from family. Plus there isn't a lot of work in the small town I live in and Nashville is near enough by that it would be perfect to keep a small boat there while I work and then come home to visit in it.

Thanks again and thanks for the great boat urls Guzzis 3, Boatfan, Manie B, and everyone else if I missed your name.

[guzzis3]

Ray Kendrick has a 16' trailerable trimaran with a small cabin, he also has 18 and 22 foot tris, all trailerable.

Buy your plywood from a plywood specialist and if you can buy it all at once. Ring aorund and you should be able to negotiate good deals, much cheaper than the stuff from the local hardware. Don't use heavier ply than the designer says to, multihulls should be considered like aircraft. Safety comes from lightness not strength.

Don't worry about capsize. A careless crew can sink the bigest and safest boat, while a careful crew can sail the oceans in a small narrow boat.

You might also consider the jarcat J6 and J5. 8' mini bridgedeck catamarans, trailerable, very safe as along as you shorten sail early, the J6 in particular is often used as a small caravan on the trailer for 1 or 2 people. If you can get a spot in a trailer park you could use it as accomodation. The kendrick 22' trimarans would do that also but they are dearer to build and more complex.

Good plans can be expensive but they can save you more money than they cost.