No Interest in the AC?

[powerabout]

True Chris
But match racing is a whole different thing than fleet racing.
I have yet to hear anybody in the world ever doing match racing in cats and there's a reason for that.
I will be plesently surprised if they make it work.
Cheers

[RHough]

Originally Posted by powerabout

True Chris
But match racing is a whole different thing than fleet racing.
I have yet to hear anybody in the world ever doing match racing in cats and there's a reason for that.
I will be plesently surprised if they make it work.
Cheers

You might want to talk to some top C-Class Cat sailors. They have been match racing for years.

You might also like to watch some of the videos of the BMWO Tri tacking and gybing before you make any statements about how slow the boats turn. These are not your mother's multi's ...

I think you will be very pleasantly surprised.

[RHP]

This article sums up the currrent state of AC quite well and reflects my views.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/oth...MW-Oracle.html

[Doug Lord]

I think this is one of the most exciting AC's of my lifetime-1983 and 87- excluded. This is a "back to its roots AC" where design is actually at the forefront of sailing technology-as it once was. And ESPN360.com will televise it live(starting 3:45am EST Monday-race starts 10AM Valencia time)-unfortunately my cable company doesn't carry it.

The races will be broadcast live on the internet here: http://www.americascup.com/en/

[powerabout]

have you seen the course...
most probably the boats will end up 10 miles apart?

Its only intersting when its a match race with equal boats....
the last AC proved that as it was dead boring and with 100% predictable race results just like this will be..

[CT 249]

Originally Posted by RHough

The design effort that both teams have made for this AC is stunning to me. I happen to think that Alinghi's choice of a Catamaran was wrong and the BMWO trimaran was a better choice

Now that the BMWO boat is not at all like it was when first launched I can share this: The boat, 90feet LWL x 90 beam, less rig and sails weighed 10000 pounds when launched.

That is a design and construction that is almost too light to be believed.

Run the D/L numbers and then see how heavy other high performance multi's are. With the BMWO budget, how light would a F-18 be?

If this AC puts and end to "speed producing lead" sailing will be better off.

But where is the evidence that a bunch of super-expensive high speed boats will actually attract people to the sport and make it better? Spectacles don't make sports popular - for example, fishing, camping and hiking are more popular than extreme sports.

Car racing is a classic example. Despite the vast amounts of money* poured into the sport by its parent industry, despite the fact that the vast majority of western adults have a car and know how to drive, motor racing is no more popular than sailing in many countries.

It's fast, it's well publicised, it's popular among spectators - and a failure in terms of attracting competitors in many ways. Why take sailing down the same path?

The boomtimes in sailing have been linked to things like increases in leisure time (the late 1800s, the 1950s) or the introduction of cheaper, easier or beginner-friendly craft (Snipes, Enterprises, Mirrors, GRP boats, simple earlier beachcats and windsurfers, Lasers, Sunfish, Vauriens etc). And time and time again, a sector of the sport has declined when the equipment in that sector became faster and more elitist.

The AC was the centre of sailing and the cutting edge of technology long before sailing became popular, because a contest that makes the sport seem out of the realm of most people sends a discouraging message. Despite the fact that the AC was a major media event, sailing's popularity growth occurred only when leisure time and small cheap simple boats became available.

Organisations like the US's biggest small-boat builder and Yachting Australia have done major surveys of non sailors that show that the reason they don't sail is NOT because they think sailing is slow or boring. In fact, they don't sail because they think sailing is elitist, difficult, expensive and complicated. The AC - whether it's sailed in monos or multis - often just underlines that message.

About the weight factor; as we all know, big boats inherently have lighter D/LRs than comparable small boats. It's just a scaling effect, so you can't just translate it back to smaller craft. Each area of an F18's decks has to handle the same crew loads as a similar area of BMWO's deck.

We already know pretty well how light you can built a practical 18 foot cat - about 75kg for a singlehander, maybe a bit less with an open rule book and modern materials. Yet the heavy F18 is more popular. Hmmmm....

I personally like light boats, but whether it's cats or sailing boats in general, it's the heavy ones that most people prefer, and the vast majority of sailors - who are generally intelligent experienced individuals - prefer leadmines. Why assume that the popular (heavy) boats that are the backbone of our sport are holding it back, when in reality it's the light boats that attract fewer bums on board?


*vast in real terms, but quite small compared to the turnover of the car industry, which may indicate that even they don't think promoting motorsport is a real winner despite all the publicity it gets.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by CT 249

Car racing is a classic example. Despite the vast amounts of money* poured into the sport by its parent industry, despite the fact that the vast majority of western adults have a car and know how to drive, motor racing is no more popular than sailing in many countries.

Here in the good ol' USofA watching motor racing is very popular.

However, the more technical, faster cars are not popular. Hillbilly racing is top dog (even though most of the hillbillys watching don't realize the technical guys have taken over the design/build/setup from the good ol' boys).

[CT 249]

Yep, Paul, watching car racing is popular - but actually taking part in car racing is (considering the size of the potential market) very UN-popular.

And as you say, it's the slower that people can relate to, like 'hillbilly racing" in the USA, V8 saloons here and (last time I looked) 2 Litre saloons in the UK, that get the biggest crowds in most countries.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by CT 249

Yep, Paul, watching car racing is popular - but actually taking part in car racing is (considering the size of the potential market) very UN-popular.

If you count track days and autocross there is a good bit of actual racing here, at least for members of clubs of performance type cars.

I've done a bit of autocross and track days with the Porsche club. I know the Jags, Ferraris, etc have similar programs.

Then we have the normal amount of street racing here. No need for a track. Mostly light-to-light, between Bubba and Jethro, each in his Monte Carlo or other Detroit product "jes like whut Dale, Dale, and Dale race ever week".

If it isn't the hillbillys it is the Asian Gangsta wannabes with their 1.8L, neon stickered, FWD imports, dragging too-large a rear wing through the atmosphere and whining through tailpipes big enough to fit their heads.

Originally Posted by CT 249

And as you say, it's the slower that people can relate to, like 'hillbilly racing" in the USA, V8 saloons here and (last time I looked) 2 Litre saloons in the UK, that get the biggest crowds in most countries.

Yeah, that was my point. Why think about the incredible design details of F1 or LeMans sportscars when you can just scream "Ford" or "Chevy" between chugs of cheap brew?

It is my understanding the V8 fans down there are the equivalent of our hillbillys.


So, to tie in to the AC discussion, from what I hear it is more about yelling "USA-USA-USA" to most sailors in this country, regardless of what is actually on the water.

[powerabout]

CT 49
for the most part I agree except your choice of F18 is a bit off
Its the heaviest cat for size raced as Hobie ( a builder of polyester slugs ) started the class and clearly didnt want to build a modern contruction.
Try an A class at 75kg all up for an 18' boat
107 kg for a F16 2 man sloop
and you see at 180kg an f18 is massive
A Nacra 20 is just only bit heavier and can be sailed by 3
A Tornado 155kg
The F18 also has a no exotics rule to try to keep production cost down but still excuse for its bloated weight.

cheers

PS sailing not as poplular as it once was as there are too many competing recreational activities to do these days.

[CT 249]

Yeah, you're right about the F18's weight. The former Capricorn builder used to joke about how he could barely physically force himself to add that much 'glass into a mould.

The Taipan 4.9s like ours weigh in at 104kg fully rigged IIRC (we had to add lead to get there) and last well, but the point is also that the F18 isn't a good boat to compare the AC boats against because it's heavy and low-tech. Secondly, while the F18 seems too heavy to some, it is more popular - just another indication that speed doesn't make for popularity.

[Zed]

I'm told (or is it known widely?!) that the/an F18 is up for replacing the old Tornado slot at the Olympics. Kiss of death! Bye bye F18's...... no?

[powerabout]

Originally Posted by CT 249

Yeah, you're right about the F18's weight. The former Capricorn builder used to joke about how he could barely physically force himself to add that much 'glass into a mould.

The Taipan 4.9s like ours weigh in at 104kg fully rigged IIRC (we had to add lead to get there) and last well, but the point is also that the F18 isn't a good boat to compare the AC boats against because it's heavy and low-tech. Secondly, while the F18 seems too heavy to some, it is more popular - just another indication that speed doesn't make for popularity.

Your right, I know the guys and the boats very well

[RHP]

Lads, we´re talking about the AC races being held 20 miles offshore!! how is that in any way spectator friendly or promotoing sailing? The public, sponsers and even LV are voting with their feet.

Doug, I guess we all have a different interpretation of excitement however innovative design at the expense of public participation negates the benefit.

Better to sail it in GP14´s 100 yards off the sea wall if you ask me.

Even better, Viking ships crewed by pub teams with a barrel of ale for the winner!

[daiquiri]

Originally Posted by RHP

Even better, Viking ships crewed by pub teams with a barrel of ale for the winner!

Now that's an idea that could work!
I would have no problems in finding 2-3 crews on short notice (it's friday night...).