No Interest in the AC?

[powerabout]

I think its match racing as usually the worlds top match racers are driving BUT no glory for the owner SO you need to add the ingredients for them;
( the helm is the key the rest of the crew could swap boats and no-one would notice)

owners make up the rules, keep changing them, boxish rules that allow max spend on design and contruction, race a few years apart to max all the above, allow the rules to be decided by a judge in the US, make it appear to be country v country and the Billionaire can now represent his whole country and make it a big spectacle so you can actually get some coin back and make sure the Billionaire gets his face on prime time.

We all know the faces of the team owners/princples in F1 and in the AC but who can tell me what any other race winning owners look like
Who could recognise their own Olympic sailors, medalists or not?
Who could tell me what if any Olympic medals John Bertrand,( Alan Bond more famous?) Dennis Conner or Russel Coutts have won?
Household names as there were no owners involved in the latter two. These guys are the only 3 to have challenged and won. ( since Dougs been watching)

There's only one game in town its the AC...where the owner can lift the trophy.

So if you race an F1 versus an F2 you wont get a spectacle so no sponsors no money no glory.
If you do, like what just happened you are going to need to change the rules as the sponsors if any wont come back nor the spectators.
No glory, no Billionaires


Those that want to just go fast can make anything and do time trials for world records.....none of which ever gets on TV or has spectators and lets face it max sailing speed record has NO vessel RULES!
and guess what..all hand to mouth programs by unknowns.

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Boston

...for a long time the race was basically rigged with the US team the heavy faves based on a number of rules favorable to the home team.

You do understand the concept of home court/field/waters advantage? Of course the home waters will be advantageous to the defender... it's their turf. Didn't really work that way for Alinghi, now, did it?

To jump the wide chasm of suggesting that the rules were rigged, is so far out there, it doesn't deserve comment.

Originally Posted by Boston

thing is its always been about the boat design and the restrictions placed on it at this point the technology has come far enough to make for run away wins and no contests depending on who made the better design choices often times years in advance

And so it goes, until the other guys find a way to catch-up and then pass the established idiom of the victor. I'm getting the feeling here that you don't follow any sports at all. It is not just the technology that one presents, it's also the manner in which the human crew operates said technology. Surely you have seen a sporting endeavor in which someone brought the newest fandangle to the line and it busted badly. The whole thing is a crap shoot and there is no guarantee that you will have it all figured out. The team that fumbles gets a chance to go back and lick their wounds, assess their potential for successfully mounting a new challenge and either rises to the potential, or backs away, going about their business

Originally Posted by Boston

I still enjoy the race but it has changed and it should just like the designs themselves its important to keep trying new things and new formula's
lest the race would be boring

..."trying new things...lest the race be boring"

Sit on that for awhile and digest what you have just said


Lastly... Boston, could you please refrain from the trite use of the term, Munchkins, within this discussion? It doesn't further the conversation, elicits poorly worded retorts from those being offended and it offers you up as a guy who has limited means for expression. I'd like to think that you have a better sense of things than to take the comments to that place. What do you say?

[Boston]

ah you might read up on the history of the cup and then get back to me on the rules favoring the old home team

rules ( for a very long time ) were ridiculously slanted in favor of the home team

I still enjoy the race, but it has changed, and it should, just like the designs themselves, its important to keep trying new things and new formula's,
lest the race would be boring

I added a few comma's to maybe help you understand what Im trying to say here

cheers
B

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by powerabout

"...Those that want to just go fast can make anything and do time trials for world records.....none of which ever gets on TV or has spectators and lets face it max sailing speed record has NO RULES!

Please avail yourself of the rules for WSSRC sanctioned records. Your comments are as far from reality as you can get.
http://www.sailspeedrecords.com/rules-2010.html

Originally Posted by powerabout

and guess what..all hand to mouth programs by unknowns.

I suppose that this comment could be true if one refused to make but a limited use of the Internet and all that it has for you to learn.

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Boston

I added a few comma's to maybe help you understand what Im trying to say here

A few periods would have been more effective, but the points being made are still a major disconnect.

[Boston]

Please read up on the history of the rules

from

http://www.cupinfo.com/en/jdetails1.php

Only the purpose-built Cup yachts, though, could compete in the America's Cup. The "converted" J-Class yachts, while acceptable for Class racing events, were not admissible for America's Cup competition. Responding to issues that surfaced in earlier defenses, the America's Cup rules required that all boats had to be sailed to the event on their own bottom. Some critics pointed out the possibility that the challenger might, as a result, be disadvantaged by being of heavier construction than the defender. In order to avoid a situation that could be perceived as an undue advantage, the NYYC eventually agreed that all America's Cup J-Class yachts would be built to Lloyds A1 standards, ensuring that defender and challenger met the same minimum construction specifications (the nautical term is "scantlings"). Most existing yachts were not built to such standards, so the Cup-eligible boats thus ended up heavier than the ineligible J's.

just keep reading and try not to get so adversarial about learning the history of the cup

I grew up on this stuff so I got a pretty good grip on how slanted the race was for quite some time before they made some more serious rule changes and it became at least competitive

(The issue of challengers having to build heavier boats due to the ocean crossing was a popular, if uncertain, explanation in the British press for the long string of American victories. In practice, a number of challengers added internal bracing for the crossing, which was then removed before racing. And on a few occasions defenders subsequently made the crossing in reverse in search of competition following their successful defense. The rule requiring that the challenger sail to the event on her own bottom was actually instituted in response to a super-lightweight challenger towed to the match through canals and rivers from Canada. )

and thats just one aspect of the rules being slanted in favor of a home team that could just sail out of harbor on race day, spin around a few buoys and head back in

[powerabout]

CO
what rules...crossbow was built to what rules I cant find any?
There are classes so what, who's interested in how fast an optimist goes

WHO..correct you/me need to look up the internet to find out who they are. My point exactly

[powerabout]

The yanks cheated for years...
how about the defender had the right to inspect the challengers boat just before it sails to ensure no illegal redio equipment but not the other way around.
by 83 all the rules were explained to the TV viewers and each days drama, it was so obviously one sided.
With film from the blimp and DC making perfect wind shift calls the radio thing came to a head and low and behold you cant check the defenders boat!!!!

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by powerabout

CO
what rules...crossbow was built to what rules I cant find any?
There are classes so what, who's interested in how fast an optimist goes

WHO..correct you/me need to look up the internet to find out who they are. My point exactly

Geez, please look at the established records. Take note that they are categorized very distinctly. Categories indicate rules to define such.

The records, themselves, are very carefully rule governed. An attempt has to be made under certain circumstances that are very carefully defined.

Are you suggesting that you are so out of touch with the mainstream of high performance sailing that you've never heard of skippers such as Desjoyeaux, Coville, Joyon, Bidegorry, et.al.? Are you admitting that you know nothing of L'Hydroptere, Banque Populaire, IDEC, Sodeb'O and the entire collection of truly fast boats on this planet?

Not knowing of these record holders is probably the reason that you make statements of this type. Looking, for just a few minutes on the Internet, with the wonderful modern tool known as Google can cure what ails you.

I'm out now. There's nothing new happening here.

[Zed]

Originally Posted by jehardiman

Is the America's Cup about who has the better sailors, and therefore should be sailed in identical boats to test the sailors; or is it about who can build the better boat, and as pointed out can lead to horizon jobs depending on conditions?

What it is about is totally debatable....!

What it became about when the twelves ruled was something different. Designers had to produce a fast yet maneuverable match racer with in the confines of the 12 meter rule, a reasonable challenge. Sailors had to master both fleet and match racing and over come the home team advantage again a not inconsiderable challenge. The 12 meter rule kept things with in reason cost wise and ensured that you where not racing camels and horses! Not one design but enough for very close racing.

That is the AC that intrigued me not the cash throwing spectacle drag race. So all I can say is its lost me... biggest cheque book wins, big deal.

Needless to say I prefer racing Etchells to mixed fleet... to many idiots with fast toys that they have trouble sailing at the front end of most mixed fleets. Class racing on the other hand much more fun for a real sailor.

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Boston

Please read up on the history of the rules

just keep reading and try not to get so adversarial about learning the history of the cup

I grew up on this stuff so I got a pretty good grip on how slanted the race was for quite some time before they made some more serious rule changes and it became at least competitive

and thats just one aspect of the rules being slanted in favor of a home team that could just sail out of harbor on race day, spin around a few buoys and head back in

This is so wrong.

Please tell us, just why the sail on your own bottom rule was made?

Please tell us, when the first time the rules were changed to make it easier for the Challenger?

Please share the motivation behind the rules in the 1887 Deed. Were they intended to make the Cup easier to Defend, or easier to Challenge for?

Unless you are 160 years old, you did not "grow up on this stuff".

Your suggestion to "Please read up on the history of the rules." is advice you might take yourself.

Start with New York Times archives, and Lawson's History.

Peace

R

[Zed]

Originally Posted by powerabout

The yanks cheated for years...
how about the defender had the right to inspect the challengers boat just before it sails to ensure no illegal redio equipment but not the other way around.
by 83 all the rules were explained to the TV viewers and each days drama, it was so obviously one sided.
With film from the blimp and DC making perfect wind shift calls the radio thing came to a head and low and behold you cant check the defenders boat!!!!

Don't go there.... we are the "sore losers" remember!

It is however interesting that the domination of the event by the US did end with Australia II and has never been reestablished.

I have not seen any mention or coverage of it in mainstream media down here, as a sporting event it's just not relevant anymore.... and we are a fanatical sporting nation!

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Zed

What it is about is totally debatable....!

Not really ... you cannot say the Cup was meant to be "Match Racing" with any credibility.

Match race sailing, as opposed to fleet racing, started evolving with the America's Cup races, whose foundation was layed 144 years ago, and which have been growing steadily since. The first match race to be sailed in one-design i.e. technically identical boats, was the Omega Gold Cup in Bermuda, that was first sailed in 1937... more

From 1851 to the J Class, the laws of nature and the agreed limits of men created designs that were somewhat close in speed. As Chris states, the early races used a time allowance or handicap. When the Universal Rule J Class boats were used, there was no need for handicaps.

When it became first to finish wins, what became "Match Racing" tactics evolved.

I think it is fair to say that the more design freedom there is the less likely a match (series of races) will decided by the sailors and "Match Racing" tactics.

IMO those that claim the Cup is supposed to be a "Match Race" are wrong. "Match Racing" did not exist when the Deed was written and nothing in the Deed suggests that was the goal.

R

[Zed]

I made no such claim that is was 'meant to be about match racing'!

I lead with....

Originally Posted by Zed

What it became about when the twelves ruled was something different

I pointed out what it evolved to and what I liked about it.

The rest is debatable and will be debated, thanks for underlining my point.

Now IMO its destroyed and will never really recover, this is an expensive joke.... we can discuss that prediction in a decade or so.

[Boston]

Mr Hough

I have clearly stated why the sail on your own bottom rule was made and apparently you missed it

please feel free to go back and read the information presented then maybe get back to us once your up to date

cheers
B