Motive 15 Trimaran

This company was featured on SA for their Motive 25 tri-too big for me. So I was surprised to find that they will be doing a 15 footer as well.
http://www.motivetrimarans.com/motive15.html

Specs:
PRINCIPLE DIMENSIONS

LENGTH OVERALL:
4.83 M
15.83 FT

BEAM: 3.55 M 11.66 FT
BEAM FOLDED: 1.52 M 5.00 FT
DISPLACEMENT: 128.4 KG 283 LBS
DRAFT DB UP: 0.15 M 0.50 FT
DRAFT DB DOWN: 0.91 M 3.00 FT
MAST LENGTH: 5.97 M 19.60 FT
MAINSAIL AREA: 7.90 M2 85 FT2
JIB AREA: 3.35 M2 36 FT2
SCREECHER AREA: 8.64 M2 93 FT2
AUX POWER (MAX): 3.0 HP 3.0 HP


-------------------------------
I was excited when I saw the renderings of the 25 flying the main hull(click on "models" above)-what a fast tri should do but the specs of the 15 are very disapointing particularly for a two person boat. The beam is less than a WETA, the weight is 60lb more than a WETA. The sail area is about the same as a WETA. The buoyancy(estimated) of the ama is greater than a WETA but if this thing flies the main hull with two aboard it won't be(guesstimated) until 15-20 knots of wind and then at a ridiculously high angle.
When will a small ,high performance tri be produced that will fly the main hull in 6-7 knots of wind, and be powered up enough to take full performance advantage of the trimaran platform to go beachcat hunting? For crying out loud a Hobie 16(one foot longer than this thing) has over 200 sq.ft. of SA vs 121 for this boat. Disappointing design direction as far as I'm concerned.
And once again, a "modern" small tri designed w/o lifting foils-heresy for a "performance" tri.........
They say:
The Motive 15R will be the fastest production beach trimaran in its class. Designed to be the ideal boat for beach launching, the Motive 15R has all of the fun and convenience of a beach cat with the added stability and performance of a trimaran. You can easily single hand this trimaran or invite friends along for a thrilling ride.

Lightweight carbon fiber construction, a simple sail plan and modern hull design make the Motive 15R a serious machine designed for pure fun. Simple and forgiving, the Motive 15R is stable and safe enough for beginners yet fast enough to keep the pros grinning. This is no “monohull on training wheels”.
=====
I say: why the expense of a carbon fiber platform with such a low performance design. They'll have trouble beating a WETA much less any beach cat. It may not be a monohull on training wheels but it is a trimaran on training wells then... So disappointing to see this kind of thing in this era of extraordinary multihull design......

 

To be honest I see a few confusing elements. Why Auxillary power? You could push this boat along easily with an oar so it's just unnecessary. Twin rudders? Why? A high aspect rudder in the main hull would be better and probably cause less drag.

Things that are useful and sensible on a 25' boat dont necessarily translate to a 15' boats more limited displacement. Positives I can see is the narrower beam of the main hull should translate into better performance in lighter airs than the Weta if lightly loaded. The sail area is low too for a racing platform and if it's not for racing why bother with the carbon fibre build. It looks to me like they have just scaled down the concepts of the 25 so it could all be subject to change before the boat is built. Their first build will be a 25' motive so it will be interesting to see how that performs.

 

I would suggest that if that tri is anywhere near as fast as it looks, two hulls may well be flying, making a single centrally mounted rudder a bit awkward on a high speed reach... At that size the centreboard may be also unnecessary... a small OB (IF REALLY NECESSARY) stowed out of the way makes for a pleasant return to the sheltered part of the beach after the exhilaration of several high speed runs (around the buoys race), particularly if there is a 15knot offshore breeze...

It is designed for the USA market and I presume they have done their market research to meet that market...

I personally prefer one of the beach cats for a bit of fun...

 

I guess it depends how you define fast because this boat as it stands will be easily and soundly beaten by beach cats and possibly even the Weta. It's narrower in beam and heavier than a Weta, carries about the same sail area and it's unlikely to fly two hulls very often due to the low sail area so two rudders are just parasitic drag. I'd feel pretty ordinary if I was easily overtaken by a hobie 16 after splashing out a serious amount of cash on this all carbon trimaran.

The real reason they have gone to two rudders I think is so they dont intefere with the outboard which is a pretty pathetic reason on a performance sailing boat. Coming back to the beach under sail to windward should not present a problem I've done it on beach cats and my own 15ft beach tri many times without issue in winds of 20 knots and over. The boat could be an exciting package but they have to get serious about either making it a performance racing boat or a performance racer/cruiser.

 

It absolutely blows my mind that with all that is known about modern trimaran design that best out there is the WETA, followed pathetically by the Motive 15. Geez, a performance tri could be done that would fly the main hull in light air and still handle heavy weather while trouncing any current beach cat. How long will it take?

 

Personally, I'd love a 16 - 18 ft beach tri to replace my Hobie 16, but lets be realistic, can a tri really compete in the beach cat market?

Can 3 hulls be made cheaper than 2 hulls?
Can 3 hulls be made lighter than 2 hulls?
Can a tri be setup at the ramp as quick as a beach cat? (tri needs to fold or assemble, cat doesn't)

I suppose if the answer is YES to 1 YES to 2 and YES to 3, then we will should see beach tris, however I suspect the answes are (unfortunately) NO NO NO

Hopefully someone will prove me wrong

DAVE

 

Well Doug, you've been talking about it as long as I've been on this forum, Chris whats his name from Lunada did lots of fancy renderings but nope, as yet no goods !

 

The hulls themselves should not cost that much more to make particularly when they are setup in molds but there is a little more surface area and hence materials. Can three hulls be made lighter? Perhaps, It depends on volume distribution, materials and structural efficiency but perhaps. Unfolding wont take long and you still have to raise the mast no matter which platform you choose. The dynamics of a trimaran are generally preferable in terms of tacking, stability and very light air performance (less WSA). Does it add up to a winning package over cats in a small package well it's really hard to say as we haven't seen full development of beach trimarans as yet.

One advantage of folding or easily demounting tri's that isnt often mentioned is for mast up or down storage if the boat is being stored in that way it generally takes up much less room than an equivalent beach cat which isn't made to easily decrease in beam. That really matters if the sailing club you leave your boat at is pushed for space. it also makes individual components lighter and easier to deal with when assembling the boat. The weta for example makes a compact package that most beachcats would struggle to match unless laboriously dismantled.

 

===============
I not only talked about it, I researched it in detail and posted a couple of preliminary designs which would accomplish exactly what I am referring to. Unfortunately, I simply don't have the money to go any further.But I have done extensive work on small tri's including designing and building a 14 footer and a 20 footer years ago and dozens of experimental RC tri's so I know for sure that if the design will were there, and backed up by a production budget, a beachcat killer tri is possible.
There seems to be a lack of will, so far, in using modern design technology on small tri's even when there is a production budget-too damn bad. Cat designers have outclassed tri designers by a large margin when it comes to incorporating modern design technology in small performance boats.
-------
Most peoples eyes glaze over when design details are presented on this forum. Nevertheless here is a summary of the design details of an 18' tri compared to an F18 catamaran:

 

Err, wasn't insinuating it should be you, just saying ! Long time !
My guess is cost complexity in this size =unsellable retail price.
Cats can sell themselves on floor area alone, tris are sponsored to carry advertising or built for the love of the genre.

 

Doug,

You assume if some goes to the trouble of designing and building a new production boat, they should spend the time to develop a decent shape. You think like a designer, not a production operation. I have worked for a few, and know the owners of a number of other manufacturing operations. Getting the product out the door of the factory, and sold, is the first and sometimes only priority of most manufacturing today.

The name of the game is selling as many as possible, use slick graphics and marketing, sell and image, and separate consumers from their money. They would rarely be willing to spend more than a token amount on a competent designer (and sometimes only than it would only for marketing reasons).

Fancy graphics and slick marketing will sell more boats than good performance, that is an unfortunate fact of the American market. Why would anyone buy a Chrysler product at all? But people keep buying them. They have been making garbage cars for years, they deserve to go out of business (and would have it was not for union votes). Many are cleaver designs, and very attractive too, but some of the worst reliability of any manufacturer in the world. It is a shame too, Chrysler was once at the forefront of automotive innovation.

So do not expect great new designs from a mass production boat.

 

I agree with the comments so far. I know not everyone wants to go fast (and the market for recreational sailors is a bigger than for racing sailors - as Hobie can tell you). Yet the implication is that this will be a fast racing boat so the sketch design does seem to be underpowered, no doubt it will change if/when a boat is built

It has a smaller rig than my Strike 15, which is a similar concept but built in plywood.

One advantage of a trimaran is that it doesn't need to have a crew on trapezes for stability. Also it can be a sit in boat like a conventional dinghy rather than a sit on boat, which might also appeal to some.

My Strike 18 motors at 6.5knots with a 2.5hp outboard, so there is certainly no need for a 3hp on a smaller lighter boat

Ultimately boats on the water sell, not boats on a computer screen. So we need to see what happens over the coming months. My own prototype Strike 15 will be sailing later this year. I hope to meet a Weta if not a Motive before too long

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

 

Strike 15 / Motive 15

Richard, just checked your tentative specs for the Strike 15 as compared to the Motive 15. Your boat has about 30 sq.ft. more upwind SA and is about the same on the other dimensions, and just slightly heavier.
I wish you luck-looking forward to the great showdown with the WETA and Motive 15!

 

My Strike 15 design is now firming up. I have just about finished the main hull drawings. It needs 5 sheets of 4mm ply and 1 sheet of 6mm. So a mainhull weight of under 60kgs looks quite likely, making my finished weight of 135kgs quite achievable. (The outriggers are built in 3mm ply)

I will have the big rig on my own boat, but I am also drawing a Laser rig option for those who want a simpler, lower performance boat.

If I can get my boatbuilder to stop sailing and get building I should have the main hull, at least, at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival in September

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

 

At our club we are looking to introduce a small sail training trimaran so the Strike 15 would most likely fit the bill. Will you post when final plans are available Richard? We would probably envision series building 4 boats and a specialist racked trailer to carry them, we are looking at the trimaran due to a lot of interest coming from novice sailors looking to do some sailing on multihulls. A beach tri means a more relaxed sailing experience than an equivalent beach cat and the folding means less space occupied when stored mast up in the boat storage area. We may have to install some baby stays to hold the mast when folded? Is the mast stayed or unstayed cant see on the sail plan?