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Old 11-18-2016, 12:26 AM
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guzzis3 guzzis3 is offline
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Modern hirondelle

Hi all,

I'm going to include the epic life story thing here in order to explain myself, but to spare you the pain I'll get to the boat idea first...and for consistency I'll try to stick to metric

I have a boat in mind and would very much appreciate comments on how feasible it might be and any problems you see.

Intended use coastal cruising east coast Australia 1 - 2 people staying close inshore and island hopping.

7 meters by 2.9 meters to fit into australia's "new" oversize towing rules

.7 hull beam and about .35 draft plus LAR keels, tornadoish hull shapes, vertical bows.

1.8 headroom in the hulls, .4ish bridgedeck clearance

deck to bow (no nets) but high forward, maybe 1 - 1.2ish

transom hung rudders, jarcat style cockpit stepped mast,maybe 8m, small boomless main and large jib, prout/jarcat style rig. 4hp aux. Foam sandwich construction.

So here's where the life story starts:

I've wanted the same boat for the last 15 years. Unfortunately just the right thing doesn't exist. I keep convincing myself this boat or that will do the job, often I catch myself before I open my wallet, sometimes not and end up selling the thing some time later when I realise my mistake. Also a lot of the second hand boats around need a lot of work, and for the cost of buying and putting right you'd ALMOST consider new.

So while contemplating a painfully cheap prout sirocco in the UK the other day (shipping kills it) I had a poke around some hirondelle stuff and remembering the changes to australian towing laws had a thought...

What I'd like is a small multihull, just big enough to cruise the coast, marina hopping where possible and always able to run for sheltered water. It should be big enough for 2, ideally have a comfortable double, enclosed head and optionally a shower. It should be simple, and ideally be able to be stored in my front yard and towed the 2 kilometers to my local boat ramp. Yes it's a long way down the brisbane river to open water but I can live with that given the cost, maintenance and security advantages of having the boat at home.

I realise a hirondelle size boat is going to have cramped accommodation, and I realise it's seaworthiness and comfort under way will be limited. Life is a compromise and until someone comes up with a boat that sails like a tornado has the accomodations of a gunboat, towes like a surf cat and costs about the same as an old hobie 14 well you gotta sacrifice something...

Obviously the numbers above are a bit odd in order to fit the towing requirement but some calculations proved interesting. The 7 m waterline to 2.9 beam is almost exactly the same as a little barrier/J6/Waller 6.7. The shadow this boat casts on the water is 25% bigger than a jarcat J6/LB. I guess we all already know that you make a boat a bit longer and it gets a lot bigger. This boat seems small enough to be doable and not end up another broken 12 meter dream turned money pit and nightmare...

So am I mad ? Anyone have any thoughts ?
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  #2  
Old 11-18-2016, 11:29 AM
cavalier mk2 cavalier mk2 is offline
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One of Richard's folding cats would do it well. A wider boat on a trailer diagonally works but you need a complex trailer or a hoist. I'm assuming you have reasons for avoiding a mono? I'd suggest that doing the sailing is more important than the perfect boat. The ability to compromise and adapt as well as improvise at times are what makes a good voyager.
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  #3  
Old 11-18-2016, 12:30 PM
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Tom.151 Tom.151 is online now
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guzzis3

You don't often hear really good advice about this, but you got it from cavalier
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalier mk2 View Post
One of Richard's folding cats would do it well. A wider boat on a trailer diagonally works but you need a complex trailer or a hoist. I'm assuming you have reasons for avoiding a mono? I'd suggest that doing the sailing is more important than the perfect boat. The ability to compromise and adapt as well as improvise at times are what makes a good voyager.
It's really about getting the best sailing boat of the boats that interest you - but you need to learn what makes a good boat, and accommodation is not one of them (besides, actually sleeping in a boat-sized double is rarely a pleasant experience on board).

I would add that an important part of the process is to be damn sure you're factoring in just how many sailing days in a row you are actually going to use the boat each year. If it's two or three days at a time them make all compromises in favor of the best sailing performance - period.

Cavalier pointed out RWoods folders - an excellent choice

Cheers,
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Old 11-18-2016, 01:31 PM
jamez jamez is offline
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Hi D.C. good to see that you're still out there. Seems a long time ago since we both started looking at designs etc. One thing that has changed over the last 15 years is that there are a lot more stock designs on offer, such as....
http://ikarus342000.com/ECO6page.htm it is a ply build but seems to fit many of your requirements.
Otherwise, check out Craig Schionnings 'Stowaway range' these have a foam build option http://www.spiriteddesigns.com.au/stowaway
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Old 11-18-2016, 10:11 PM
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guzzis3 guzzis3 is offline
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Thank you for the replies. I'll answer each point in order:

cavalier mk2:

I love sango but standing headroom shower is a problem. The pop bottom is no place to put a shower. Perhaps if the removable coach roofs had full headroom it might be an option. Also I'm not fussed on daggerboards. A part completed sango sold here recently last advertised for $8k. Incredible bargain ...

Mr Woods elf as a self build would be a better option. Although only 2' shorter than gypsy it's a significantly smaller boat as far as I can see. It has full headroom in the hulls and one iteration came with a central pod. Shadow with more headroom would be nice but the LAR keels are difficult on a trailer. A bridgedeck cat can be suspended from the bridgedeck, that's how the little barrier is towed and so it has lar keels. If your spreading the hulls and assembling that's a different problem.

Mounting a bigger boat diagonally is a possibility. It's not that hard. I'd only be towing it the short distance a few times a year and going on long trips. Part of the issue with a bigger boat is it's a bigger project. Labor is the big issue but of course the cost of everything increases. My idea here was to strip the boat to the absolute minimum.

Mono. Well I learned on keel boats, discovered cats in the late 90's and instantly loved them. It's not about speed it is about easy sailing. I'm lazy I have been looking at keel boats lately as prices have fallen so far now they are pretty much throw away boats. You can get a top design scruffy 30' yacht for 12 and something very nice for 20. The only problem is you then have a 30' mono...

Sailing is an illogical pursuit. I take your point about perfection, but I have to be happy, otherwise I might as well be on a cruise liner...my previous efforts over these some years haven't made me happy. Maybe the right mono would do that, but a weird cat is a safer bet

Tom.151

3 months at a time. I've not been working for some time. I don't sail at night, nor in poor weather so sleeping is done at anchor in sheltered water. I don't like big boats. I don't like the sailing. I like being close to the action, and even getting wet...but 'm not particularly interested in speed. If the boat makes decent distance over the course of a day I'll be happy. What I don't want is a boat I don't feel safe on, or one that sails like a pig.

jamez:

I hope you were ok in the quake. I know your well away but I heard people up there felt it. I have friends in christchurch

I've always not liked the echo 6. I'd have a little barrier all day over that boat. Personally in my opinion the LB and the J6 are by far and away the best mini bridgedecks anyone has ever designed. If you put the J6 cockpit stepped mast and rig plus dual entries on a little barrier I reckon you'd have perfection in that style of boat. My opinion...I just see lots of use problems with the others.

The Schionning is fascinating. The 7.5 is very similar to what I've had in mind. Disturbingly so. I can do without the huge outboard though 60hp!! It give me heart though that my thought isn't entirely insane. The plan price is surprisingly reasonable. I've never liked his work, gigantic roomarans aren't my thing, and balsa...sigh...and there is plenty I don't like about that boat, but there is plenty that it has in common with what I've got in mind. Thank you very much for the link. Odd he quotes 3m beam. 2.9 is the limit for the oversize towing rule. After that it's wide load and much more trouble.

Their comments on the design are really interesting. I'm not sure about the $80k finished price though. I wonder if he suggests solid gold taps ?

Again thank you for the responses.
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Old 11-18-2016, 11:42 PM
Mr Efficiency Mr Efficiency is offline
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How easy would it be to get the boat on and off a trailer ? You'd not want any protruberances snagging rollers.
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  #7  
Old 11-19-2016, 04:38 AM
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guzzis3 guzzis3 is offline
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Mr Efficiency:

Well J6 and little barrier aren't difficult. I'd go for a trailer that supports it under the bridgedeck not the keels. Much bigger power cats sit on trailers like that. I think it would be ok ? And the mast would be manageable. My local ramp as mentioned is well up the river, so no waves and usually no wind to speak of. I row in that section regularly and canoes and kayaks use it a lot. There are severe currents mid tide, you'd have to watch that.
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Old 11-19-2016, 09:22 AM
rberrey rberrey is offline
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You might look at some of the older tris . Horstman did have a 23/25 , and the 24 can be built as a folder .
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Old 11-19-2016, 10:47 AM
cavalier mk2 cavalier mk2 is offline
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I remember your quest Guzzi. I spent years sailing a 23' mono with no standing headroom. It did have a pop top that never got used. The trick on standing room showers in camp size boats is to use the cockpit with a boom tent if the anchorage is squeamish. The cockpit already drains. I use a solar shower, the hose can go through a hole in the tent, on mine the topping lift opening was in the right place plus I could tie the bag above the boom on it. That is part of the improv necessary in small sizes. While the mono wasn't my dream boat it certainly helped me find one by going cruising. There are deals that don't get advertised if you stop to ask about the occasional gem in the rough.
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Old 11-19-2016, 02:39 PM
catsketcher catsketcher is offline
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Gday Guzzis

That boat would be terrible - you can't make something that tall and expect it to be safe - you will be making it less stable and the windage would be awful - no going to windward in a blow. Therefore you will have an unsafe boat.

You don't need standing headroom so much if you can sit down but do I get the proper double and the separate toilet area. This is always the killer for me with the smaller tris for really stress-free cruising. It takes a special type of woman to handle the idea you can use the toilet and use the stove at the same time without moving. Cats get around this simple bit of biology so much easier than tris. I have had a few terribly embarrassing experiences from my small tri sailing days with bodily functions and small spaces.

I am taking our 7 metre folder down to the Gippsland Lakes in Christmas. It has done one trip from NSW to Hervey Bay last year - and after (always more) subtle modifications I should be taking it down to Victoria in early January. Sailing beam - 4.5m, trailering beam 2.5 . LOA 7.3m. Sitting headroom and separate toilet area and a 1.35m wide double. If you like I can post some pics to you and if you are interested you could come to Lake Macquarie and have a sail.

cheers

Phil
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Old 11-19-2016, 02:56 PM
catsketcher catsketcher is offline
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Here are a couple of shots of the 7.3m at Wathumba in Fraser

Interesting little story. We were motoring into Coongul creek 20 miles away from where these pictures were taken and saw a nice Easy. It had a good yacht designer on board and as we went by he didn't wave much or seem too interested in our boat. As it was the first cruise on the boat I was pretty excited to be out and slightly dampened in my enthusiasm by the reserved response.

We met the designer and his wife when we were walking around at low tide. We talked a bit and said we were from Newcastle in NSW. He said

"What boat do have?"
"We have the little cat up the creek" I replied
"Oh okay - and where did you come from?"
"We came from Urangan"
"When did you leave Newcastle?" I then had to think a bit as it was Tuesday.
"We left on Sunday"
"No, not when did you leave Urangan, when did you guys leave Newcastle?"
There was a bit of a quizzical look at us. Could we remember the days of the week? Then it gelled on me.
"Our boat folds up on the water. We drove her up to Urangan and it took just over one day - we launched her at Urangan on Tuesday"
He was much more interested in the boat then and asked if he could have a look over her. I took that as a compliment as the boat obviously didn't cry out FOLDING CAT - BEWARE!

cheers

Phil
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Modern hirondelle-trim-wathumba.jpg  Modern hirondelle-wathumba-1-1-.jpg  
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Old 11-19-2016, 03:57 PM
jamez jamez is offline
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Hi Phil,
Great that you found time to finish her off. She looks great. More pics please. Are you planning on re-establishing the website?
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Old 11-19-2016, 04:21 PM
jamez jamez is offline
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Guzzi, we were fine thanks, but the in-laws at Blenheim (top of the south island) had a sleepless night.

For that type of boat (small bridgedeck trailer cat), I think the Echo makes good use of the space. Having had first hand experience of a couple of B K's smaller designs they do seem well thought out.

The little Barrier was a nice looking boat. I assume the molds were destroyed in the fire at the factory years ago.........

The stowaway strikes me as more of a motor sailer type of boat - especially if you fit the big engine :-), although Im sure it would be fine with a 10-15. If you are committed to that configuration it might be worth speaking to the designer to see if it could be altered to suit your spec.

If it was me though, I'd be checking out Phils folder.
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Old 11-19-2016, 06:07 PM
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guzzis3 guzzis3 is offline
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Good morning all and thank you for the comments. Again I'll try to address each in turn.

cavalier mk2: Excellent point about talking to people. I realise there are a lot of boats out there that change hands without ever being advertised. I had thought of cockpit or foredeck showers and yes they solve that problem.

I hadn't spelled this out previously, in my J5 the cabin was great, but just a little too small. I thought often that if the proportions were just a little bigger it would be a much nicer space. The J6 is longer but neither wider nor higher. Get into a little barrier cabin and it feels a LOT bigger. It isn't much bigger, and the white helps, but a little more in a small space like that makes a big difference. I was seriously considering buying one new and looked over the boat at length at the factory. It was a tremendous loss when that burned down. He was selling the sportdeck GBE's faster than he could build them. They were a great boat and both models sell for good money now second hand. At the other end of the scale the red barron, nominally the same size, is much more cramped and awkward in side.

So my thinking, possibly misguided, is that creating a larger cabin will not only afford more luxury but also a more amenable space.

There are other cheap larger options around atm. I'd forgo trailering if I went down this path, obviously, and as I said previously bigger boats bring a whole other set of issues. There is an imp 10 opendeck on gumtree atm for $22k. I know they are a pig of a boat but even an awful 10 meter cat would have to be more seaworthy and comfortable than what I'm proposing

catsketcher:

What I'm proposing is very close to a hirondelle. They had 5'6" or 6' headroom, 10' beam and 23'long. While unconventional I think it's doable.

Is your boat your own design or one available to buy ?

jamez:

I've been to Blenheim. Stayed a week in picton. Absolutely love the place. Did you get your trimaran finished ? I have been looking in here occasionally but some fairly serious health issues have had my attention these last 4 years.

Yes I believe the molds were destroyed along with everything else. Such a loss...

Incidentally if you stick to 4hp aux in queensland you don't have to register the boat. Cheeky I know but $380/year

I've had another crazy thought. A crowther international 23 has almost exactly the hulls I was thinking of. There are a few around in poor condition. If I could get one at the right price I could build a new connecting structure, cockpit and push the headroom up as far as I dare.

Last edited by guzzis3 : 11-19-2016 at 06:10 PM. Reason: darn typos
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  #15  
Old 11-20-2016, 11:43 PM
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guzzis3 guzzis3 is offline
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You would think all these years of cad I'd be better at this. Anyway this is a really crude picture showing roughly what an international 23 would look like with 6' headroom amidships. It's clunky, but not as awful as one might at first suspect...

Obviously I stole the photo from the internet. I hope the owner doesn't mind...
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