Modern hirondelle

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by guzzis3, Nov 18, 2016.

  1. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    I loved my 14' cat. You little boats look like a lot of fun!

    My idea has always been to have something small for day sailing and a bigger boat to cruise. It would be nice for a lot of reasons if the cruiser could be stored at home. I'd prefer the cruiser to be small for many reasons. I just don't like huge boats...12 meters in inconceivably big to me...unfortunately I've made quite a few bad decisions with boats, but most have not cost me too much money which is something :)

    Like you I'm old with too much old stuff, my garage is 50% bigger than my house and full! :)
     
  2. Manfred.pech
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    Manfred.pech Senior Member

    I hope you will find a design that will fit into your dreams. Hirondelle is a nice boat - but for my taste it is too big. It needs a mooring and a lot of care about - time which is better invested in sailing.

    [​IMG]

    If you want a dink I have good experience with TABUR YAK 2 ( http://images.google.de/imgres?imgu...ved=0ahUKEwiP-oreiMTRAhVpM5oKHb-ZAuMQ9QEIJjAE ) and ( http://jmhauchard.free.fr/perso/bateau/tabur.html ), only 37kg and 2,5m long. You can sail, row and motor it and it has sufficient stability. If you want to build your own here is something like a plan. But Tryst/Duo with plans from Richard is better.

    Article from MULTIHULLS

    [​IMG]

    or: http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/rogermannorg/library/PuddleCat 8 or 9 footer?sort=3&page=1

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/catamaran-tender-replace-rib-50834.html
     
  3. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Another fascinating post.

    I hope you will find a design that will fit into your dreams. Hirondelle is a nice boat - but for my taste it is too big. It needs a mooring and a lot of care about - time which is better invested in sailing.

    But that's the point. In Australia we now have the opportunity to trailer a boat 2.9 meters wide using oversize signage. So a slightly narrower hirondelle type boat can be trailered, stored and maintained in my front yard. That was the starting point of this thread. With about 5' 9" - 5' 10" headroom in the cabin the hirondelle is a signifigantly bigger boat than a jarcat J6, little barrier etc and might just squeeze in as an acceptably comfortable coastal cruiser for longer trips.

    My dilemma has always been that while I love small boats I want more comfortable accommodations than a 20' beach cat can offer. I'm looking for the smallest package that delivers those accommodations in a reasonably seaworthy and nice to sail package. People have sailed caper cats (like the one I used to own) all up and down the queensland coast. They are your typical 14' beach cat with a small rig and lockers in the hulls. I'm not 20 years old anymore, I can't cruise in that sort of hardship anymore. :)

    Hell I'm not even 50 anymore....

    Thank you for the links. Fascinating stuff.
     
  4. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    Anything ?

    So guzzis3, help us out here, is there anything on your short list ?
     
  5. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Lots.

    Richard Woods Eagle and Elf. Elf would be perfect but is not available just yet. Still waiting on the builder to sort prices etc.

    Simpson F1 hulls. I have tried to contact Stallion marine/Cure composites. Email, sms left voice mail. No response.

    Beach marine 25' hulls if I could find some.

    Prout sirocco. There is one cheap in the UK but shipping kills it. I would think it's a bit small to sail home.

    A hirondelle is just slightly too wide to trailer and I know of none in Australia.

    Maybe the Kendrick Fish and Chips, although the boat has some aspects I don't like.

    The Horstman 27-9, but I don't want to build it from scratch. I advertised on gumtree. Only response was a bigger horstman and it's not actually for sale so...

    Possibly sango.

    Ideally I don't want to build from scratch, and I don't want to design my own boat, but I've not found anything on the second hand market that "grabs" me. An 8 (ish) meter open deck that demounts easily and has good headroom in hulls or a smaller bridgedeck to 2.9 meters wide with good headroom.

    And no body likes my ideas :) At the start of this thread I asked what you all thought of a slightly larger little barrier/J6 etc with more headroom and everyone told me it was a bad idea. I mentioned the idea I'd had for split beams, no one seems to like that either. So once I'm out of hospital in february I'm going to hopefully get some stuff done and probably build something. First a small boat, probably tryst, then the main game.
     
  6. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    I like the 27'9" but its a big boat for it's size, I have the study plans for the Horstman 24 tri, it has a flared hull and blister deck option to provide headroom, I'm thinking stretched to 26' it may not be so bulky and would improve the b/l ratio for the better. At 24' it is 8:1 right at the minimum for good performance. Not sure if those options will translate to the demountable version though.
    What don't you like about Fish&Chips ? Maybe talk to Ray ?
    There is one being built in SA stretched to 26'
     
  7. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    I too like the Eagle with a cuddy, but not the dory hull bottoms.
     
  8. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    I like the 27'9" but its a big boat for it's size, I have the study plans for the Horstman 24 tri, it has a flared hull and blister deck option to provide headroom, I'm thinking stretched to 26' it may not be so bulky and would improve the b/l ratio for the better. At 24' it is 8:1 right at the minimum for good performance.

    Not sure if those options will translate to the demountable version though.

    I didn't know he had an option on the 24 for headroom. That's interesting. I just had a look. I'd managed to completely miss that on his site. I wonder what the empty weight of the 24 is. And he retains the doubles in the trailerable version! I'd want to take the cabin further forward and site the heads at the front. It's really only the heads where I want standing headroom. He suggests lifting the floats by hand! Good lord...

    Looks like headroom over the wing bunks is only about 18" or something ?

    I'm not concerned about performance, I do want the boat to sail nicely, but not necessarily fast.

    From the sailing only perspective I could make do with something very small and spartan, like a farrier tramp. The smallest cats with 6' headroom are around the 7.6 - 8 meters. In tris to get headroom and privacy you pretty much need 30', or the hartley sparkle :D I've just been wondering how far I could push that into a smaller boat. I'll have to take another look at the horstman 24.

    I've got the study plans for the 26MT and full plans for an F82, but they are too small inside. Ian Farriers plans are the best I've ever seen but they kinda need to be. They are hard boats to build. An F32 came up abandoned project last year for $13k at townsville. Took him ages to sell it. Floats done lots of supplies and deck gear, but a LOT of work to complete. There is/was an F82 on gumtree atm for $28.

    What don't you like about Fish&Chips ? Maybe talk to Ray ?
    There is one being built in SA stretched to 26'

    I'm pretty sure that person offered me his part completed boat. He may have run out of steam.

    If I bought plans for fish and chips ahead of eagle it'd be because I'm more comfortable butchering that design. It's actually closer to what I'd design than eagle in some ways, more cruising oriented, swing boards, but the way it assembles is a mess, worse than a seawind 24, very slow and labor intensive. I'd want to re-engineer the whole bridgedeck mostly changing the mast beam so it's 8' long and attaches differently. I could live with the full width aft and bow beams (but not sliding into "pockets"), I could make it so the deck lifts up and then I remove the beams separately. That's what I'd do with eagle aswell, since everyone had told me the flange joints idea was a bad one (which I kinda knew). I assume Mr Woods has sorted out how eagle demounts, and I would expect it's a good solution, but those details are not on the web site.

    I too like the Eagle with a cuddy, but not the dory hull bottoms.

    Yeah I'm not bothered by that. Chined rounded it'd all good. I don't like ply and daggerboards make me nervous.

    If someone had a set of cat hulls with headroom in glass for a reasonable price I'd buy them and make something, but that's a unicorn. I'm flexible, I'm open to suggestions, but I think (hope) I've laid out what I want clearly. I'm open to anything that ticks those boxes. Everything I've come across is a compromise, and that's ok, but I've had compromises in the past that did not make me happy. For the right boat I'll lose trailering and put it on a mooring. For the right boat I'll compromise somewhat on headroom, but only to a point. I'll look at a tri or cat. Foam, solid glass even strip, but a boat with lots of timber is going to be a maintenance problem soon or or later.

    A mini bridgedeck in foam with the wider beam and taller cabin would suit nicely, but everyone thought it was a bad idea :)
     
  9. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    What design is this ?
     
  10. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

  11. rberrey
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    rberrey Senior Member

    Horstman also has a 23/25 swing wing that might fit . Rick
     
  12. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Fair enough. The person's name was Justin, or at least that was their gumtree name. 25' 3.49 beam recently transported from tassie to adelaide.

    Would you mind some questions about the horstman 24 ?

    Can you tell from the study plans:

    How much the hull might weigh in foam ? and how that compares to the 27-9 ?

    How much the floats might weigh on the trailerable version ? I wonder about his suggestion they could be lifted on to the cabin.

    How much headroom over the double bunks ?

    I'm starting to wonder if that boat is the one...The only thing I'd change is swap daggers for centerboards which is easy enough...

    By the way I know the flared hull looks appealing but to get the extra living space he pushes out the bunks. That's fine in the bigger boats but the 24 has little headroom there to start and as they move out toward the floats it only decreases. So it's a good option but not without consequences. 2c...
     
  13. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Thank you, but I am aware of those boats. They are essentially the same as the 26MT and the accommodations are not what I'm looking for.
     
  14. Manfred.pech
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    Manfred.pech Senior Member

    Yes, common beach cats do not offer comfortable accomodations. I felt most of the time like an ape on a grinder under showers of a fire hose and after years punished at the backbone and nervus ischiadicus gave me a severe demonstration of his existence. No comfort, no backrest, no shelter, not even a possibility to stow beer or chicken wings or ham and eggs. Boring!

    There are thousands of beach cats but those with accomodations or the possibility of overnighting are very rare. But there have been some:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    First two pics show the Distans52 of AB Tidlosa Marin of Ekero Sweden which has "sit-in" comfort and a tent for overnighting. The third pic is a german product of Graf Hagenburg, the following is a one-off from Quorning/Skaerbaek (Dragonfly) in Denmark. All are no longer in production.

    A lot better is the situation for selfbuilding up to 20ft. There are interesting plans from Richard Woods, Bernd Kohler of Icarus, Jerome Delaunay, Roger Mann and many others. I for myself would use this for me. For instance: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/scowcat-470-a-56228.html

    If you want more I would try to get a used multihull - something like this: There is headroom enough and a small cuddy can be added as a bridgedeck cabin.

    [​IMG] or: http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/woodgate/sail-boats/catamaran-30ft/1131558427

    I would not build such a big boat. It needs lots of money, good skills in woodworking and epoxy, physical and psychic power, a large minded wife and a lot of time where you can not sail.
     

  15. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Thank you for the post.

    Those camp catamarans are very interesting.

    The distinguishing feature of the caper cat is it had lockers in the hulls. Big lockers. One was insulated for use as an ice box. There was enough room in the others to carry tent, clothes, sleeping bag and whatever else you needed.

    At 4.2 meters x 2.4 beam it was remarkable versatile for what it was. They are common here.

    As I mentioned there are plenty of tramps round aswell.

    http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/ting...nter-tramp-tri-hull-trailer-sailer/1130027097

    An example. You could get a spacious tent for them.

    There are plenty of red barrons and jarcat cats available aswell, but for coastal cruising they are probably a bit small.
     
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