Minimum cruising cat-size & cost

Thanx guys.
Cat fan - dont like tri's - just personal preferance.... is a nice boat tho'.

 

Blind Date and the Romany are about the same displacement (~2.5 t empty), IIRC. So both are at about 500 to 600 lb/hp when empty, sounds about right, although I doubt you'd be able to get away with a single 9.9 on anything larger.

 

About 25 years ago I did some extensive power testing on my 35ft Banshee catamaran.

I tried outboards from 4hp to 75hp

The 4hp would push the Banshee at 4 knots in a calm, the 9.9 6 knots, the 40 11 knots and the 75 16 knots. Twin 90s were later fitted to another Banshee and it did 22 knots while towing a waterskier.

I have video of my 11m Mirage design fitted with twin 9.9hps doing 8.5 knots under power.

So I can believe a 9.9 would push a light 50 ft boat at 8 knots in a calm.

However I consider that 35 ft is about the biggest size boat for a single 9.9hp because the engine will also be used in 30 knots headwind and a choppy sea. Those conditions usually halve speed, while maneuvering a big boat is difficult in close quarters with only a single engine, especially with a cross wind.

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

 

Richard, your contributions here are priceless and on behalf of everyone here I thankyou. RR

 

On to rudders - as i am interested in a double ender - what options do i have....
Having them set in from the hulls? And boards too.....

 

24' is the smallest I would feel comfortable in.

 

Small open cats are totally impractical and for my 2 cents ALL Wharrams are lousy
Rory and Cooking Fat says it all - just read between the lines - to me the boat is dangerous

http://roryandcookie.blogspot.com/
http://roryandcookie.com/

If you still want to build a cat for Cape waters, here is your best option, proven track record, really good boat, go and BUY the plans

http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/sagitta.htm

 

Hi Manie - i do like a couple of Richards boats - but wonder why such a sweeping statement about wharrams? I have no wish to cruise in anything as small and wet as cooking fat!!! I do however like the Pahi range -31?

 

Whats wrong with Wharrams?

 

Not much. There are lots of things you can do to upgrade them, more efficient shapes to use etc..... but they do what they were designed to do which is to take people voyaging who may or may not know what they are doing and bring them back alive while being very easy to build. Sailors who do know what they are doing such as Rory G. and Glenn T. have covered a lot of ocean on a budget that wouldn't get most people to the sea let alone sailing on it. The Tiki 26 is the smallest Wharram recommended for ocean crossings but smaller designs such as the tiki21 and hinemoa have been used.

 

Ok let me start over - first and foremost no offence to anybody and I am not trying to piss anybody off and the views expressed here are my own - albeit silly - it remains personal

http://wharram.com/pahi31.html

I am a very keen dinghy sailor since childhood and because I live in Pretoria South Africa = 800kms = 8 hours from the sea, my ocean sailing experience is limited to Durban - Mauritius - some RichardsBay - little Cape Town and a lot inland for 40 years Vaaldam and Hartbeespoort dam. I hold a skippers licence from Ocean Sailing Academy Durban which I did on a Beneteau 36 and I have sailed a heck of a lot on L36 mono's and similar sized heavy mono keelboats. Even if I could sail now full time I could never get the hours that Richard Woods has at sea.

I really got interested in yacht design some 10 years ago and for the past 5 years the "hobby" grew into some kind of a passion that borders on obsession. I study and read about yacht design morning noon and night.
I personally think that i have probably read every word that the boat builders and designers (that interests me) have written in the past 10 years.

As you know I am building a micro to FULL MINI TRANSAT SPEC it is really a 5m mini with a larger cabin. Fun project and one hell of a learning curve. I am also involved with designing and building an 8m catamaran for inland waters. I am doing all the design and drawings in CAD. I am doing this for a friend and the DRAWINGS WILL NEVER BE FOR SALE.
http://boats-n-stuff.com.au/forum/index.php/topic,110.0.html

So to the point - wharrams were designed by hippies for hippies in a bygone era that has no place anymore. Its a day cruiser with a stupid design and high maintenance for people that smoke too much pot. The picture in the Pahi 31 website screams HOLIDAY and suntan lotion. We have an excellent example of a REALLY WELL BUILT boat on the dam. Its a gloryfied raft with a short mast. Its an "image" thing for folks that dont know better and dream too much of sunny islands and coconuts filled with rum.

When you build a boat you will learn very quickly that the hull is a minor part of the cost and a work. So why build antiquated junk designs. The same goes for origami steel hulls. Sure you save time and sure its nice to have the hull standing there overnight - but is it really suitable for your application and waters. Resale value is important to many folks.

There is ONLY ONE WAY TO SAVE COSTS = BUILD SMALLER - there simply is no other way out, believe me I am involved with two very different builds at the same time and we cross these "cost obsticals" every day.

If you are worried about the budget, build a small mono, if you got the bucks and LOTS of time go for a decent cat, but for gawds sake dont build a raft that is tied together with rope and a prayer.

Modern epoxy over ply IS FANTASTIC- it is the ultimate medium for the amateur home / backyard builder. When done well, will give good resale value if done to plans from a recognised designer with a good track record.

As I said at the beginning its personal - dont **** yourself

 

Ok....
But - he has sold over 10,000 plan sets and there are a lot of them out there sailing, while others save to buy later?
That bad hey?

 

Being new and not wanting to ruffle too many feathers, I still have to say I agree completely with Manie's philosophy here.

Putting cost aside (because you can build many well-designed catamarans for the same price as a Wharram), the boats are just dogs.

The only reason they get any speed at all is that you have absolutely no shelter on deck. I had looked into the possibility of adding a very light and minimal deckhouse to a Wharram Pahi 41. I asked the designer about this idea. I asked a very technical question about pointing ability with added windage, stability, righting moment changes, etc.. etc...

What was the answer I received?

"We feel that adding a deckhouse would ruin the look of the boat and we will not allow you to do so." "We like to maintain a certain image."

The answer to my technical question was concerned with aesthetics instead of addressing the real issues I brought up. This immediately spoke volumes to me about the design of these Wharrams. They seem to be more of a tiki bar afloat than a boat. They are designed to look "cool" (I don't think they do) and designed, as Manie said, to address some romantic notion of the South Pacific from years gone by.

If I were building a boat (and I am!) I would go for something that actually sails well and can provide you shelter. If you have spent time at sea, you'll know that shelter is a requirement, not a luxury. It's also a safety feature. Same goes for sailing ability. That is a safety feature too.

Go by the words Chris White once spoke to me: "It costs just as much to build a crappy boat as a good one, so you might as well build a good one."

He's right. For my current build, the cost of materials for the hull comes in around 20% of the total build cost. Don't even look at saving money on the hull. It's just not worth saving maybe 5% of a vessel's build cost to come out with a boat that is worth half of what a good one is worth.

You will spend a large portion of your time alloted on this Earth to a build as an amateur. Don't throw that time away on a so-so design. Build the best boat you can.

The Wharrams are not the best boat out there, despite some ingenious little inventions. The hull shapes (deep V) are all wrong. The boats only sail because they have no windage (and no shelter/safety). They aren't the most inexpensive boat per foot on the used market without reason.

BTW: I'd give a serious look at the poster Richard Woods' website to get started. He has some boats that sail a lot better than a Wharram and provide you with shelter. They cost about the same to build too, and come in the smaller sizes the OP was asking about.

 

I like a lot of boats. I like Wharrams. Some of them actually do sail pretty well. Some of them are only sailing barges. I am a builder for Wharram and I am certainly biased. Many of his designs do not sail very well. Many of them are built by people with low skill sets,unreasonable budgets and limited seatime. I really don't know of another 30' cat that sails along at double digit speeds in under a meter of water. I have also had discussions with Richard Woods and will probably be building some of his designs in the near future.. We also are a recommended builder for Reuel Parker.

 

Pahi 41? The pahi 42 does have a sheltered deckpod and cockpit, Richard Woods also offers V hulled boats (which are soft riding and sea kindly) and they worked well for thousands of years for the Polynesians. Besides if a boat can be built and sailed by safely by stoned hippies they are safe for anyone. While the establishment sees them as a expendable part of the population these crash test dummies have proved the concept and having their boats look cool and romantic might spread good vibrations which the world needs along with love. Now go hug a tree for karma then slather its fibers in epoxy.