"Mayfly"-A Class Catamaran-Fischer

When am I going to learn. Repeat after me. Never get involved with an argument with Doug Lord.......but anyway, here goes......

Let's start with the easy stuff

At no time did I ever disparage curved foils. Totally the opposite. I have been one of the people really pushing the cause of curved foils in A's. My only comment was that i tempered my enthusiasm by saying i was still skeptical until they were proven. I am sure others can understand the difference between somebody who is skeptical but tries ideas early compared with somebody who doesn't believe and is disparaging. And to be totally clear, my very first conversation about buying an A was with Steve Brewin and one of the things I said was that i wanted a boat that could be converted to try curved boards. I admitted I wasn't sure if they would work, but from the start i wanted to use them.

And next.......

Typical Doug. Loves to quote to make a point, even if he twists the quote. Please note that i never said "lifting foils" on the rudder. The foils on the rudder aren't there to generate lift as such but are there as a dampener. Theya re set to neutral and aren't adjusted. the idea is that if the bow rises, the angle of attack on the wings lifts the back of the boat, thus dampening the pitching. In the same way, when the bow goes down, the angle of attack on the rudder wings changes so that it pulls the transom down, thus countering the nose down attitude. The intention is that if one can dampen pitching, it makes the angle of attack of the curved foils more consitant and the whole thing works better. There is little evidence so far that it works but, more importantly, there is no evidence that it slows the boat so some of us are continuing to play in this area.

However, with the Mayfly, the rudders are designed to give lift at all times and can be adjusted on the go. Chris always felt that as soon as the rudders were away from neutral, the boat felt like it was being dragged back.

Again, Doug fails to understand the point made. But this time he decides to take a pop at Blunted, who I think knows a great deal more than most about designing cats and who really does understand why Rocker didn't work. And while Doug goes on about the inability to do "Veal Heel" on Rocker, that is not one of the key problems that Rohan told me about. Of course, Doug has never paid any attention to what Rohan has said to me, prefering second hand news reports. The funiest of them was when Rohan was staying with me and Doug was posting about how much Rohan weighed and getting it well wrong. I has Rohan on a set of scales, next to the pc, with about 7 or 8 others there and Doug refuting the weight we said Rohan was because of something he had read on the web. Too funny!!

So here are some facts about the Mayfly. The results speak for themselves. Martin and Chris came nowhere. I have spoken to Chris at length and to people who have lined up next to the mayfly to see what the speed is like. Contrary to what Martin might say, everybody says that there isn't a point of sailing where the mayfly was competitove. They say it was slow upwind in all conditions, although less slow when there was more breeze. What is uncertain is whether than was because the boat was performing better in a breeze or whether the sailors were simply a lot more skilled at sailing an A in breeze than the majority of the bottom half of the fleet. My general take would be the improved performance was down to good sailors and it being less bad (note I don't say better!). Chris is a very good downwind sailor and he said it was impossible to make any serious gains downwind. He also said the boat tacked really, really slowly, however hard he tried to find a way to get the boat to turn.

Now Chris is one of the best light wind A class sailors in the world. He won a race at the 2010 worlds and was in the top 10. If he was finishing in the 70's, there was something very seriously wrong with the concept and it was more than the centreboards not being deep enough. Did I say the boat wouldn't tack......

Of course, there is no telling Doug. He would rather take the word of somebody who has a vested interest than the whole of the rest of the A Class community and the eveidence in the results. So no change there! The interesting thing is that myslef, like a number of people, held off making decisions on new boats because of Martin's repuation and the claims he made for the boat. I even had somebody promise to take pictures of the boat in full as soon as they got to the worlds so i could make a decision before anybody else. I saw those pictures at least 3 days before anything appeared on the net. Then, I got a message from Stevie Brewin telling me to forget the Mayfly because it was deeply flawed (for those who don't know, Stevie won the worlds).

The interesting thing about new, radical ideas is that they often don't work properly to start with. That's easy to accept. However, what usually happens is that there is some glimmer of hope, something that stands out which makes people think "wow, this has some potential!" The problem is that nobody is saying that. In the conditions that Martin says he was fast, Chris says he was slow and he was ahead of Martin!

I should add that I am not saying that Martin cannot turn this around. However, I do not think this is minor tweeking but more like back to the drawing board. I would be very suprised if what comes next has more than a fleeting resembence to the current set up. It wouldn't suprise me if Martin comes up with another absolute winner. He is a great designer. However, it needs to be something radically different. I therefore conclude that Doug's original premis that the Mayfly is something worth paying attention to is wrong, but I will look forwarcx to Martin's next design in the hope he hasn't lost his touch and the Mayfly was simply a blip.

 

Veal Heel

Just so we're clear on this, we did do the veal heel Doug.

here is Rohan on the yacht himself with either me or Rob crewing for him





Blunted

 

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Magnus that looks like "windward heel" to me-not veal heel. In any analysis of how veal heal works on a monofoiler it is clear that one of the major advantages is that the CG of the hull and everything else shifts markedly to weather-at up to 30 degrees of windward heel. That didn't happen on Rocker as best I can tell.
A further look at it shows that the weather shift in CG can result in a 30-40% increase in RM-I don't think that happened on Rocker, did it? *
Measured off your picture it looks like the weather heel was 9-10 degrees maximum. Considering a Moth does "veal heel" at up to 30 degrees I'm thinking what you show is a variation on weather heel.
Another critical point in describing veel heel is that the CG is markedly to weather of the immersed lifting foil-not the case here-since the windward foils are to weather of the CG!*

* 9-24-11--See Magnus Clarke's reply ahead. He says that the windward wands were disconnected so that those foils were not providing any force up or down. Therefore, with the leeward foils doing all he lifting the CG would definitely be to weather of the center of lift. But is that veal heel? A "normal" cat has the exact same relationship when the lee hull is doing the lifting. So RM in the case as described by Magnus would not exceed the "normal" RM of the boat except by the degree to which the CG is moved to weather(as a result of 10 degrees of weather heel) of the position it would have on a "normal" cat with the lee hull doing the lifting. And maximum RM would be far less than that possible with both wands functioning as designed. Veal heel? Its still sort of a grey area as applied to Rocker, in my opinion....

 

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1) So the lifting foils on the rudders don't lift ,they "dampen",huh? Don't they do that by creating lift-either up or down? Rudder foils on almost any boat including Mayfly, Dr. Bradfields new foiler, a Moth or on Landy's A Class sometimes lift up and sometimes lift down. Just a fact. Thats how rudder "T" or "J" foils work.
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2) I took no "pop" at blunted-though he probably deserved one for the comment about Mayfly at this early stage of development! Comparing Mayfly to Rocker was an insult directed right at Martin Fischer-- that was a damn shame. I merely pointed out in an earlier post here the MAJOR differences in the foil configurations("T"-foil vs curved/"J" foils) between "Rocker" and Mayfly-backed up by experimental development work by Greg Ketterman. Proven many times over. Not speculation.
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3) The facts about Mayfly aren't fully known yet-but those that are known are in the third post of this thread. I take Martin Fischers assessment over any other, period. Making the kinds of judgements that you and blunted(Magnus) have is typical for you ,Simon-and surprising as hell coming from Magnus(and very disappointing).

 

Really?

Doug my freind, lets be clear on this.

I started out by simply pointing out that the sailing characteristics of Mayfly(2011) sounded an aweful lot like another boat I worked on not too long ago. Full stop.

As for the Veal Heel thing, you can characterize it how you wish, I leave that to you. As for me, having sailed with Rohan on the Rocker, I persoannly kind of thought about that as being a veal Heel, in as much as Rohan was on the boat, we were sailing as heeled to weather as we could get the boat. And to be clear, the weather wands were disengaed for that particular test, so no the weather foil was not making the boat stand upright, we were flying on the lee foil alone and dragging everything else around with us.

So actually the CG of the boat was well to windward of the center of lift of the boat, and yes it dod improve the performance of the boat to windward and according to Rohan himself, it may well have perfromed well, eventually, had we continued to work at it.

Since then I have done the math on the CG of the boat, inclusive of vectors pointed skyward etc as the boat rolls to weather and my CURRENT conclusion is... a C-cat, heeling to weather, trying to fully foil, does no better than an archemedian set up. the limits in my tests are length of foils, after 6' long they cannot be made strong enough without being quite huge, fat etc. As such in my most recent experiements, the boat can only heel 10 degrees to windward or so and still fly, so a CG adavantage is gained, but there is too big a trade off having to have the lee hull so high in the air, so the roll forces applied to the boat tend to neutralize any benefit gained by heeling the boat to weather. Thus it comes out as a bit of a wash so far.

So let's circle back here just so we are clear.

I think mayfly is a nice little boat and I give Fischer et al full credit for going out and doing it, drawing it, building it, testing it, having the balls to step up and race it, and most of all for having the balls to recognize and acknowledge what does work, and what does not work. I never dissed his work, you implied I did by drawing a fairly objective comparison between two boats, one which did not work out as planned and another which, oh wait for it, did not work out as planned, that happened to exhibit very similar behavious according to the available anecdotes.

So I am not making any judgements Doug, you are. When I draw a parralell between two yachts and you call that an insult, you imply that Rocker was ***** and that I am calling Mayfly ***** by extension. Methinks the table is not turned the way you perceive it to be. Perhpas it is I that should be insulted that you imply that Rocker was *****?

If Her Fischer took insult at anything I said, for one I would be surprised but for clarities sake I say, sorry to Mr Fischer should he feel slighted. The fact is, as stated, he has my respect for getting off his *** and just doing it, regardless of the outcome.

 

Yeah, really-or maybe probably?

Magnus, thanks for the interesting info about the "Rocker" set up. I still don't think it was "Veal heel" but it is in a greyer area than I thought it was.
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You were quoted by a recently departed forum member "Hussong"(aka Chris Ostlind) saying this:

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I sort of thought that sounded like an insult to Martin Fischer-saying his new boat, that is still undergoing development, was a "woofer". Just doesn't sound like a compliment or even a reasonable comment given the situation.
And it came after Simons ill-informed comments and smacked of the SA tradition of piling on somebody when they're down.
If that's not how you meant it then I'm sorry I got upset. I believe that a designer like Martin Fischer deserves the benefit of the doubt at this point in such a radical design development.
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Are you still with Team NZ? Do you think the boats could benefit from rudder foils -and/or more lift from the daggerboard?

 

Doug, I respect the man and what he is trying to do, but if it barks, well..... it barks.....

and that may well change in the future, I genuinely hope it does....

 

I see that you still would rather try to be a smart arse rthare than try to contribute to the conversation.

Anybody with any sense knows that the wings on the rudder generate lift either up or down. I was refering to the function they are meant to perform. On the Moth and Mayfly, the primary purpose of the winged rudders is to lift the back of the boat, in the case of the Moth to get it right out of the water while in the case of the Mayfly, it is to act like extra bouyancy at the back of the boat. In both cases, the rudders give positive upwards lift at all times. The other wings on A Class rudders such as Landy is using are not designed to do that. When the boat is sailing level fore and aft, they should be set at neutral, giving neither positive or negative lift. We did wonder whether these wings would also help with the problem of the boat jumping out of the water through too much lift from the curved boards, something Landy has suffered from on the Scheurer, but as he still reports that problem I guess it isn't helping!
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Wow! It sure looked like you taking a pop at Magnus! Maybe it is you who doesn't know how your own words come across.
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The difference between you and me is apparent yet again. You would rather take 3 written lines you have found on the internet as your evidence. I would rather speak to people who have sailed the boat and who have sailed against it. In addition, the evidence is there for all to see. Look at the results.

Now the question I have for you is simple. What would you believe? Would you believe a few lines written on an internet blog that you have no way of knowing whether they are a correct reflection of what Martin has said or would you believe an Olympic medalist who tried to race the boat. Would you believe the results? Would you believe the other A Class sailors, including the new world champion? How do you interpret the fact that the builder of the Mayfly, who has invested serious amounts of money, is giving up on the foil concept? So, Doug. Who has the ill informed comments. The guy who picks up the one liners off the net or the guy who has spent a lot of time talking to people involved with the project?

Yet again, Doug, you sit behind a keyboard prefering to find blog quotes to support your arguments rather than listen to people who are actually out there living and talking about this stuff on a daily basis. BTW, how is your boatbuilding coming on. Any pictures of your progress. Suerly there must be some in the last 3 years. You seem to have time to post non stop and to attend the launch of other people's projects.

 

Mayfly!

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I have talked to Martin Fischer personally about this project several times. He has always responded to my questions and is a damn nice guy in addition to being brilliant. I respect the guy immensely and have little patience for second hand assesments of the performance of the Mayfly.
The boat has awesome potential!

 

More from Martin Fischer:

At the beginning of the first race the wind was quite strong and we were in the top 10 at the first mark, but then the wind dropped and we fell back.This is easy to fix – just longer boards – but of course we cannot fix it here, so we are hoping for wind, although the forecast is not very promising."

from catracing:

So the Mayfly needs some tuning, after seeing also today that he was one of the fastest downwind with 16,6knots as per gps data, I'm sure an update to the daggers will find a balance in all conditions.
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PS- I hope to have more first hand information before too long. I'll continue to follow this story and this very interesting boat....

 

Fine Doug. Whatever you say. I hadn't realised that you had now become the expert on A class performance as well as all things foiling. You continue to quote off blogs rather than base your comments on hard facts.

The thing i really don't understand is why you bother. You don't sail. It makes no difference to you at all and maybe that is good because based on all the stuff you hav eposted over the years, you would never have a competitive boat. For some of us, analysing what works is rather important as we are out there trying to win races. members of my training group filled the results at the A Class worlds. We are constantly looking for that edge. According to you, we must all be stupid as we cannot identify the next big thing. There is no doubt at all that we, as a group, will push the limits to find an edge yet according to you, we are all clearly ill informed and being stupid to ignore this.

What you cannot fathom is that some of us have analysed the Mayfly, based on first hand experience. Or are you saying that the others who have sailed the boat don't understand it and that all of us don't understand what makes a boat go?

I knew I should never have got involved with debating this with you. I guess the only comfort I can gain from this is that you always seem to back the wrong ideas and therefore I am now even stronger in my belief that the problems with the Mayfly make it not worth spending time looking at it. I think we need to call this the "Doug Test". If Doug thinks it's great, run the other way!

In the mean time, I am going to do some work on my boat so I can sail next weekend, against other A's. I am sure we will end up talking about development and I will report back on any further comments on the Mayfly. Of course, with over half the top 10 in the world there, i don't expect they will knwo a bar about anything and will get it all wrong about the Mayfly.

 

Mayfly!

Thanks for the information, Simon.

 

some explantations on the MayFly by Martin Fischer

Hi everybody,

My name is Martin Fischer and I designed the MayFly.

Doug put my attention to the discussion on the Mayfly on this forum, and I thought it might be a good idea to present my point of view of it.

First of all a small remark: I am pretty surprised how personal things are getting in this discussion. I think we are here to discuss technical issues and not to insult each other!!

First of all I fully agree that we were not at all successful at the Worlds in Denmark. We had mainly light winds and in these conditions we were definitely not quick upwind. Downwind it was a bit better, but not brilliant.
In the stronger winds, however, the boat showed promising performance (on this point I strongly disagree with some comments made on this forum). Therefore I don't agree that the concept is completely wrong and in my opinion it is worth looking into it in more detail and trying to understand what caused the poor performance and how to fix it. I therefore spent quite a bit of time over the last weeks running a complete re-analysis of the boat.

I am in the process of preparing a report on that and I’ll publish it withing the next two days (the time it takes to finish the report).

Best regards
Martin

 

Mayfly

Welcome, Martin! Thanks for sharing your insight on this very interesting design.

 

Super, look forward to some collectiove moderately objective anaylsis.

Good work all rou nd Martin