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  #91  
Old 01-26-2009, 09:45 AM
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Spiv Spiv is offline
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3 furlers cutter rig

I just found a 3 furlers rig in Fremantle.

This is the kind of rig I would consider "almost" the ideal cruising rig.
  • Parallel leading edges on the fore-sails
  • Furling main (i.e.boom-less)
  • self tacking jib and main
  • endless reefing on any heading
I have not been able to contact the owner yet, but I hope I will soon.
I will relay his experience on this thread.
Attached Thumbnails
Main-less rig-ulu-03.jpg  Main-less rig-ulu-01.jpg  Main-less rig-ulu-02.jpg  

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  #92  
Old 01-26-2009, 11:12 PM
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Manie B Manie B is offline
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Spiv please have a chat to the owner

i also like that kind of setup even with the losses of the main to windward in the shadow of the mast

i am in the process of building my small "Jarcat" with such a sail setup and it would be rather nice if i could get feed back from someone that is actually using this system
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  #93  
Old 01-27-2009, 03:53 AM
sigurd sigurd is offline
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Hi, another configuration here. In order to protrude the masts less in front of the bows when lowered, compression members are used in place of the fore aft stays.
Due to the elongated cross section the masts are stiff fore aft.
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  #94  
Old 01-27-2009, 09:18 PM
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I was able to have a good squiz at John Hitches catamaran in Manly (NSW) last week.

I sailed with John quite a bit in the early 1980s. He is a master at the black art of multihull rigging, and if he can make it work---it really works.

With large enough board areas and a single mast well aft it is amazing how well the boat can be sailed to windward on a flat set Genoa alone.
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  #95  
Old 01-27-2009, 10:03 PM
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Manie B Manie B is offline
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@ Oldsailor

we had the same experience

Aft mast tri

i was blown away - you cant believe how well a single sail works with a good daggerboard
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Main-less rig-am14.jpg  
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  #96  
Old 01-28-2009, 01:23 AM
masalai masalai is offline
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Manie, you should have let the whole sail out and given the boat a bit of a workout - you must have had enough movable ballast there for a full gale Good sailing lad...
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  #97  
Old 01-28-2009, 04:10 AM
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oldsailor7 oldsailor7 is offline
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Just what we are talking about.
http://www.wiebel-sailing.com/Gallery.html
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  #98  
Old 01-29-2009, 08:50 AM
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Spiv Spiv is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manie B View Post
Spiv please have a chat to the owner

i also like that kind of setup even with the losses of the main to windward in the shadow of the mast

i am in the process of building my small "Jarcat" with such a sail setup and it would be rather nice if i could get feed back from someone that is actually using this system
Manie,
I am trying to contact him, but still no luck.
Anyway, this is what I am working on, the mast will be Carbon fibre with Dyaneema cross wiring, actually all rigging will be Dyaneema.

The two front furlers are 'StayFurlers', the aft is a standard reefing furler.
There will also be a storm jib.

As always, any comment is more than welcome.

The mast swivels forward releasing the backstays with a dedicated electric winch.
Attached Thumbnails
Main-less rig-55ft-cat-sail-plan.jpg  
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  #99  
Old 01-29-2009, 01:21 PM
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Manie B Manie B is offline
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Stefano i am unsure of the actual value of such an elaborate mast. That is why i am building my "Jarcat" with a normal mast setup similar to the pics that you posted. What has been a real "eye-opener" is how well a good aftmast points with purely a headsail. The point i am trying to make is that you can easily sail away of the dreaded "lee shore".
Under normal cruising conditions, with the wind from behind, the gap between the mast and the mainsail has little effect (running downwind)

This little boat that i am building is to have a reasonably true scale model of the 12m cat that i am hoping to start very soon. There are very few guys that can give accurate information as to how well these rigs perform and on which points of sail they are not good, if you ask the experts to put a number to it they can't because everybody is trying to design or sell plans for a Volvo or Vendee.

When Fanie and I went to sail his very basic and unrefined "Tri" it is one of those occasions that you wish everybody could be there too see how well it goes.

I am at that stage now that i am very unsure of who to believe anymore, and that is why i am totally happy to put my money where my mouth is and go ahead and build the boat and test it and make the results public knowledge

here is my sailplan
the mast position is approx at the 60 / 40 mark of total boat lenght
the third small head sail is actually a storm sail that will also be on a furler
Attached Thumbnails
Main-less rig-minicat5-sail-plan.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: pdf MiniCat5 sail plan.PDF (65.4 KB, 423 views)
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  #100  
Old 01-30-2009, 07:52 AM
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Spiv Spiv is offline
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Manie,
I cannot see any problem with your rig as long as you can swing the 'boom' past the backstays. Go for tit, looks good.

I want a lowering mast, where I live and where I want to go, I must go under bridges. A fixed mast would just preclude me from going to 3\4 of the most beautiful places in the world. there is nothing like being able to get into a protected river, perhaps like the Swan river in Perth with all its yacht clubs, marinas, cliffs, lake like sailing paradise, when outside is blowing a gale.
Then we have all the European cities, waterways...
My design will lower in a minute or so and I only need 3m clearance.

I have managed to speak with the owner of the three furlers boat today.
he was walking away from his boat going to a family meeting, so he had no time, but he said he is very happy with it.
I am buying him a beer (or two) next week and have a long chat with him, I will post his findings here straight away.

One thing I can confirm, my last cat (12.4m) had a normal bermuda rig, however when winds were over 25Kn, I could sail better with jib only than with jib and reefed main.
I could never sail with main only. It could well be that mine was poorly designed, however I would pay any price to do without a conventional mainsail.
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Last edited by Spiv : 02-01-2009 at 07:17 AM. Reason: Spelling fix
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  #101  
Old 01-30-2009, 08:28 AM
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Pericles Pericles is offline
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Spiv,

You remarks about the use of mainsails reminded me of Dee Caffari sailing in the Vendee Globe. She has had her mainsail delaminate into shreds. http://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/

She can still sail at 12+ knots in Aviva using headsails. http://tracking.vendeeglobe.org/en/

As 30% of the mainsail is in the wind shadow of the mast, it seems feasible to construct that section as Dyeema netting, to reduce weight without sacrificing strength, if one were to use a mainsail and especially with a wing shaped mast.

What do you think?

Regards,

Perry
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Last edited by Pericles : 01-30-2009 at 08:43 AM. Reason: Spelling
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  #102  
Old 01-30-2009, 10:33 AM
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Spiv Spiv is offline
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Hi Perry,
the only reason to have a wing mast is to have it rotating into the wind.
In that case the sail has to be fully attached to the trailing adge and become part of the airfoil.
Same as in beach cats, it does work.
I had a rotating wing mast in my 12m cat and I could fill the difference in rotating it into the wind.

However, my gripe with the mainsail has only partially to do with the mast.
There are the reasons I will not have one again:
  1. you must hoist it into the wind
  2. you cannot furl it a little or a lot, but must take a reef at a time.
  3. unless you are really a wiz when you need to reef:
    1. you will need help
    2. must head into the wind with the jib flapping wildly
  4. if you are running and the wind picks up you can get in trouble very quickly
  5. you need to be carefull when jibing
  6. boom, preventer, downwhaul, boom lift, lazy jacks, battens, boom bag, zip.....
I am sure I can think of more if I want to!
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  #103  
Old 01-30-2009, 12:43 PM
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Pericles Pericles is offline
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Spiv,

I agree with you all all those points. I mentioned a wing mast because it offers a area of propulsion not available with a standard mast.

A forward raked mast set deep into the hull, with a buttress to support the lower one third of the mast, offers self tensioning stays on which to bend furling foresails. I would construct the mast like a recurved bow, The belly facing forward would be in compression and the back facing aft would be in tension. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurve_bow#Recurve_bow

A back stay would not be necessary, but as such, it could serve to fly a mizzen as mooted by Brian Eiland. The deep set mast would suit a catamaran, as its location through and below the bridge deck would become a fixed dagger board.

I really should not be offering these weird ideas at this time as it's the end of a long, tedious week and I am now supping chilled white wine, but for what it's worth I do get inspiration ------ sometimes. You may say "Not this time". but I couldn't possibly comment. Hic!

Best wishes,

Perry
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  #104  
Old 01-30-2009, 02:51 PM
masalai masalai is offline
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Perry & spiv, I concur with your assessment to not have a main - and have opted for a 'hitchhiker rig' with 2 genoas leading from mast head to each bow on my 39'C from Bob Oram to be commenced in April 09.... Some have suggested . . . "must be flat cut"... I then have a large expanse aft of the mast for solar panels if I desire ($) and warrant (large house services capable)....
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  #105  
Old 01-30-2009, 11:05 PM
rob denney rob denney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiv View Post
Hi Perry,
the only reason to have a wing mast is to have it rotating into the wind.
In that case the sail has to be fully attached to the trailing adge and become part of the airfoil.
Same as in beach cats, it does work.
I had a rotating wing mast in my 12m cat and I could fill the difference in rotating it into the wind.

However, my gripe with the mainsail has only partially to do with the mast.
There are the reasons I will not have one again:
  1. you must hoist it into the wind
  2. you cannot furl it a little or a lot, but must take a reef at a time.
  3. unless you are really a wiz when you need to reef:
    1. you will need help
    2. must head into the wind with the jib flapping wildly
  4. if you are running and the wind picks up you can get in trouble very quickly
  5. you need to be carefull when jibing
  6. boom, preventer, downwhaul, boom lift, lazy jacks, battens, boom bag, zip.....
I am sure I can think of more if I want to!
G'day,

Stefano, all those problems are solved with a wing section unstayed mast and a rigid boom attachment. It also solves the drag and operating hassles involved in large furling headsails.

Manie,

Thanks for the report on the headsail only rig. Sounds very impressive. Looking forward to the gps details next time you go out. Would be great if there was a conventionally rigged, similar size boat to sail against as well.

regards,

Rob
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