Low price Catamarans

[RB PowerSailing]

Deal All

in a previous post can read that the catamaran 42' island breeze was

in the water only 11 months and in charter service and was managed by the builder,

that is correct . Only one small detail is missing :

managed by the builder ( RB Power and Sailing ) FOR FREE and investing over 5,000 US$ of his own money ( amount NEVER refunded ) in captain/crew salaries, marina charges , blankets ,safe equipmentsand so on ...

We forwarded the excel documents of the costs to the Owner and after 3 months we got a refund of 50 % of the amount paid by RB Power and Sailing ; expenses detailed and with proper receipts .

The yacht has been delivered to Mr. Stone and left completely abandoned in Ocean Marina , with a windscreen broken ( an accident with a russian client a bit overweight) and fleeded of water for over 6 months . Damages to the boat are the results of no maintenance and care at all . Plumbing into electric conduits and strange parts are a result of many workers messing around this boat during the months , and extremely far from the original conditions , as delivered by the Builder RB Power and Sailing .

Thanks for your attention .

RB Power and Sailing

[kengrome]

Who would take delivery of a boat with obvious faults?

Apparently his name is Kenneth Stone. He was posting here previously as 'Been-Robbed' but for some reason he seems to think he can deceive us by coming back and posting under a new username this time ...

Who did the pre-commissioning survey?

My guess is no one. Based on his failure to provide any facts or evidence to support his previous claims, my guess is that he never bothered to inspect the boat before paying for it. And now that maintenance issues are coming up he doesn't want to bother with them, so he is trying to blame the builder in an effort to make the builder pay for this maintenance.

Were any shortcoming noticed at that time? Were they corrected before the owner decided to put the boat into service? What standard of construction was specified in the contract?

If you look back through this thread and review the whining complaints by 'Been-Robbed' you will see that the moment he was asked to post his contract he conveniently disappeared. Yet even though he has miraculously been reincarnated as 'also concerned' he is still ignoring my questions about contract terms -- and he is still whining about the same issues we were trying to get to the bottom of the last time.

By using his 'disappearing act' to avoid helping us get to the bottom of these complaints, this leads me to believe that he does not want to be embarrassed in public by posting a contract that fails to specify the details properly -- since we would all know he was negligent if we were to see such a contract.

His effort to hide his identity and come back here as 'also concerned' is yet another indication that he is making an exceptional effort to hide his identity instead of being honest and forthcoming about this and everything else.

I don't know what he expects to accomplish here anyways. It is clear that when a person tries to make an issue about missing hose clamps instead of simply buying and installing them himself, he is in no way determined to get the boat back into service. Instead he seems more interested in whining and complaining and 'finding fault with the other guy' rather than putting it behind him and getting on with his life.

Even the pictures he posted prove nothing since they were taken months after the boat was accepted and paid for by the buyer and then put into commercial service. Are we supposed to believe that the pictures illustrate the features of the boat at the time of sale?

HAH!!!

I'll tell you one thing. If he does not do something about these issues now that they've been published more than once in this forum, then he will be 100% liable for any injury or damage they might cause to other people. After all, when you own a boat, know about the problems and post that knowledge online -- yet do NOTHING about them -- you certainly cannot blame the builder when someone gets hurt, can you?

Personally I think 'also concerned' or 'Been-Robbed' or Mr. Kenneth Stone (whatever you feel like calling him) may be so frustrated or embarrassed by his own screw-ups that he will never answer our questions -- or else why didn't he post his contract here the first time I asked him?

RHough, it seems you came to the same point in your recent post that I did a couple weeks ago. You asked to see the contract so we could see what was agreed to and what was not. I did the same. Yet instead of seeing the contract terms we get noting but another 'concerned' post ...

Same old unjustified issues, just a sneaky new way to approach them, that's all.

Edit: I wrote this post before *****'s post #124 but apparently I posted it after his.

[kengrome]

It seems I was right. Mr. Kenneth Stone came back here to complain some more, only this time he used a new 'also concerned' username instead of his previous 'Been-Robbed' username. I wonder what username he will have the next time he shows up here?

The yacht has been delivered to Mr. Stone and left completely abandoned in Ocean Marina , with a windscreen broken ( an accident with a russian client a bit overweight) and fleeded of water for over 6 months . Damages to the boat are the results of no maintenance and care at all . Plumbing into electric conduits and strange parts are a result of many workers messing around this boat during the months , and extremely far from the original conditions , as delivered by the Builder RB Power and Sailing .

I suspected as much. I also suspect that Mr. Stone is either 'out of money' which gives him an excuse to neglect the boat instead of getting it back into service ASAP, or maybe he is actually trying to let it sit there and rot for as long as possible -- so he can claim even MORE damage against the builder than he should.

Which is it Mr. Stone?

Don't you have enough money to get the boat back into commercial service??

Or are you trying to make the boat lose as much value as possible before you file a case against the builder -- so you can claim even more damage than what the builder could possibly be responsible for???

People like this make me sick. They show up here and do nothing but complain. Yet the moment they are asked to post some simple evidence to prove that they are justified in making such complaints, they either ignore the questions or they disappear so they can avoid answering them -- neither of which illustrate a reasonable level of maturity or integrity in my book.

[RB PowerSailing]

Dear All

In response of a previous post , showing some pics of installations on a boat , supposely the 42' Island Breeze , let me clarify that RB Power & Sailing NEVER EVER used electric conduits for plumbing , PVC valves for swimming pools on thru hulls , garden rubber hoses or so , on boats .

So please notice that these photos are not authentic .

here below some pics of our standard installations , plumbing /electric . I took them just few minutes before from a boat that will be launched next week .

Thanks for the attention


RB Power and Sailing / Pattaya Thailand
www.********************

[RHough]

Originally Posted by kengrome

RHough, it seems you came to the same point in your recent post that I did a couple weeks ago. You asked to see the contract so we could see what was agreed to and what was not. I did the same. Yet instead of seeing the contract terms we get noting but another 'concerned' post ...

I've been dealing with customers for decades. The biggest complainers are the ones that shop on price alone. They seem to think that anyone in a service business if out to cheat them. If you start with the idea that everyone is trying to charge you 2 or 3 times what their product or service is worth, it is easy to tell yourself that a quote for 1/2 or 1/3 the price must be the only honest quote you have.

Selling your product or service as the cheapest should warn your customers that they cannot expect much. Quality and a good experience are remembered long after price is forgotten. I don't know any of the people involved here, but if it is true that the yard advertises low price as their claim to fame, they must expect to endure the reputation that low price shoppers will saddle them with. I also think customers that would contract for a cheap boat do not want to face the fact that they cannot afford a well built boat of the size they want.

I have no idea what these customers do for a living. However if they are good at their profession, they know that the same service or product they supply cannot be purchased for pennies on the dollar. They expect their clients to pay a fair price for their work, yet shop for the cheapest boat they can find.

IMO low bid contractors and cheap customers deserve each other.

That said, I have also seen some real **** with expensive nameplates.

Being careful and and active partner in getting your boat built will insure you get what you pay for. If you don't know what you are looking at, hire someone that does and have them check.

I don't think anyone goes to work with the idea, "I'm going to do a crappy job today." I think it is human to do the best that you know how. If the result is substandard, the tradesman does not have the education, experience, tools or skills to do better.

If you are not happy with custom work, you have only yourself to blame.

[robert self]

Originally Posted by kengrome

Even the pictures he posted prove nothing since they were taken months after the boat was accepted and paid for by the buyer and then put into commercial service. Are we supposed to believe that the pictures illustrate the features of the boat at the time of sale?

Originally Posted by RB PowerSailing

Damages to the boat are the results of no maintenance and care at all . Plumbing into electric conduits and strange parts are a result of many workers messing around this boat during the months , and extremely far from the original conditions , as delivered by the Builder RB Power and Sailing .

So what are we saying? 1) been-robbed aka also concerned aka kenneth stone is NOT posting pictures of Island Breeze built by ***** **********, or 2) these are pictures of Island Breeze and Ken Stone dismantled his own boat, took off the high quality through hulls, etc. or 3) no maintenance and no guards posted to protect his boat resulted in thieves stealing all the high quality fixtures originally onboard when the boat was launched then replaced them with cheaper stuff, or 4) the plastic thru-hulls added after the original launch. Too many unknowns.

I wonder how much Ken Stone netted while Island Breeze was in charter?

cheers
rself

[masalai]

My take on the situation, on the evidence posted is that "beenrobbed", "concerned" and "ken stone" have failed to make or substantiate any case for consideration by anyone, except to provide evidence of defamation by them, to be used in claims by Raul & co against the 3 foolish cry-babies.....

So, for the last time "been robbed", "concerned", Ken Stone" - PUT UP - and state a solid case or, - - SHUT UP and apologise profusely on this thread, admitting to your failures.... honestly....

[Nordic Cat]

Originally Posted by RB PowerSailing

Dear All

In response of a previous post , showing some pics of installations on a boat , supposely the 42' Island Breeze , let me clarify that RB Power & Sailing NEVER EVER used electric conduits for plumbing , PVC valves for swimming pools on thru hulls , garden rubber hoses or so , on boats .

So please notice that these photos are not authentic .

here below some pics of our standard installations , plumbing /electric . I took them just few minutes before from a boat that will be launched next week .

Thanks for the attention


RB Power and Sailing / Pattaya Thailand
www.********************

In the picture with the water pump, I don't like the way self tapping screws are screwed through the inner layer of fibreglass into whatever core has been used, especially not into the hulls in an area that is likely to get wet at some stage.


I think that the take most posters have on the situation is probably correct.

Don´t get involved with a boat building project unless you know what you don't know!

Alan

[masalai]

Hey Nordic, look again - to ne it appears that the pump and associated stuff is assembled on a platform (wood/glass/metal?) which is above the hull line as the engine is behing and below the line of the base of those items in *****s images...

Whereas the image in the "also concerned" post looks very dubious - an add on put in after water damage from being abandoned on hard stand for 11 months in the rain with a "busted hatch"..... Which pump are you referring to?

[kengrome]

So, for the last time "been robbed", "concerned", Ken Stone" - PUT UP - and state a solid case or, - - SHUT UP and apologise profusely on this thread, admitting to your failures.... honestly....

Mas, I think this guy will never post his contract, nor will he ever apologize. It seems he may not posess the ability to accept responsibility for his own negligence -- much less the ability to apologize for his multiple screw-ups. He has had plenty of time to post his contract by now, but instead he comes back and attempts to deceive us by hiding behind a new username. Deception is not only disrespectful, but it clearly shows us who is willing to 'play games' here ...

Mr. Kenneth Stone is doing NOTHING to get the boat back into service. All he is doing is blaming the builder for everything, and apparently trying to force the builder to pay for everything he can find to complain about -- a year or more AFTER he accepted the boat as-built -- and after it was used commercially for 11 months!

Not only that, but Mr. Kenneth Stone went into this charter service with the same builder he is whining about!

Maybe someone can tell me why a dissatisfied buyer would continue to do business with such a bad builder? From my way of thinking, if the buyer was so disappointed in the boat's construction then he should have avoided dealing with the builder at all costs from then on. Yet instead of avoiding the builder, this buyer found yet another way to do business with him!

Maybe the buyer is simply too cheap to use some of the money he earned in the boat's commercial charter operations to do the proper maintenance himself. In this case he is living in a fantasy world ...

Maybe the buyer thinks that any boat he buys should never need any maintenance? Another case of living in a fantasy world ...

--------

I think the bottom line here is that the buyer ACCEPTED THE BOAT AS-BUILT by making the final payment and taking delivery. So where (in the contract) does it say that the builder is responsible for dealing with the issues Mr. Kenneth Stone has been complaining about?

Personally I think Mr. Kenneth Stone made these mistakes:

1- Failed to perform his own due diligence investigation and research into the builder before hiring him;

2- Failed to inspect the boat when it was finished and to demand that deficiencies be corrected;

3- Demonstrated acceptance of the boat as-built by making the final payment;

4- Continued to demonstrate his acceptance of the boat as-built by putting it into commercial charter service;

5- Continued to demonstrate his satisfaction with the builder's ethics and performance by going into business with him in this separate charter leasing venture;

All these mistakes are the fault of the buyer -- not the builder.

And please Mr. Kenneth Stone, will you explain this failure to pay ***** half of the money he says you owe him from your charter business? What is your justification for refusing to pay? Surely you can explain this ...

[RB PowerSailing]

Dear Nordic Cat ,


i think that you mean the pump for the water maker .

Under any part as salt water strainers , pumps and so on , there is a plywood laminated platform , glassed to the hull .

The self tapping screws , then , of course , don't reach the hull , core or whatever material has been used .


RB Power & Sailing

[Nordic Cat]

Originally Posted by RB PowerSailing

Dear Nordic Cat ,


i think that you mean the pump for the water maker .

Under any part as salt water strainers , pumps and so on , there is a plywood laminated platform , glassed to the hull .

The self tapping screws , then , of course , don't reach the hull , core or whatever material has been used .


RB Power & Sailing

The self tapping screws that hold the hose clamps down look like they are screwed directly into what looks like a stringer. I prefer to use glue- on pads, but some will not agree.

Alan

[RB PowerSailing]

normally glued-on pads are necessary only for heavy items that are fixed in the bilge .

to screw down an hose clamp into a wooden stringer should be acceptable and is commonly done even on maxi yachts and in all the production boats that i have seen in my last 23 years .

if we are looking for defects , we can find many even on a new Rolls Royce last model .

in the photo shown in our previous post , the construction material is plywood and glass ( 3 layers of 3/8 " ) and the stringers are in hardwood .

In a fiberglass boat ,with stringers in foam or so , it is different , as they cannot hold a screw , or not durably .


Regards


RB

[robert self]

Hi All,

Here is a pic of the same hull under construction shown in *****'s last post. I've seen the inside of this boat and the stringers are solid wood. Foam insulation and hull under can also be seen. So, self-tapping screws placed into 2 inch wood stringers, apparently glassed over too, to hold hoses in place should be OK, IMO.

The engine in the background is probably a generator, not the main engine. Obviously (I guess from original post) this boat is not a catamarran. The pics are of a 60 foot 1930's style power boat.

rself

[RB PowerSailing]

Dear All ,

i noticed many posts where 'low cost catamarans' is intended as low quality or cheap accessories , things that are absolutely not the case , as i intend to explain in this post ;

RB Power & Sailing 's low cost cats , is a precise result of a policy and a research on materials that last now for over 10 years .

Robert Self is indeed very keen about the $/pound concept . A Question ? How many $ of the total amount paid by a client are really spent on the boat ?

This is a critical question and it is the key to understand why RB Power & Sailing is offering the same or even a better quality of boats at a much lower price :

@ RB owns the real estate of 3 yards and the main office . We don't pay any rent . Pls notice that a shed is normally rented at Minimum 4US$/sqmeter/month , in Thailand , in any Industrial Area . ( In Ocean Marina is more expensive of course )
A 42' cat , uses 84 sq mters , but to work confortably need as minimum double space ,so then 168 sq mt , for 1 year : 8,064 US$ saved / boat .

@ RB got an internal Audit and certified accounting , with a saving of about 20,000 US$ / year .

@ RB pays for the raw material less then every other Yard , as is using from 500 to even 1,000 Kg of resin/day , and this large turnover let us buy at the best possible conditions .

@ RB owns large store and purchase every item in large quantity , with over 30-40% discount , respect a smaller Yard .

Starting from teak wood , plywood etc . Huge saving are also performed on transportation costs .

@ another point is that RB works on own designs .

@ RB employs enough workers , over 115 , to realize many scale economies .

@ Own upholstery team , stainless steel team .

@ RB owns truck and cranes , and don't rent them , with other savings .

@ Yard ocean front (in construction now) to avoid launching expenses .

Our policy is to build a large number of vessel to generate some scale economies and build up a very expert large size team in the meantime ; company profit is based on big numbers and is a smaller percent on the purchase cost then other Yards .

@ Our contracts volume for the existing financial year is much over 3 millions US$ and will be over 6 for the next year ( October 2008-2009)

This way the Company got much better credit conditions and facilities for payments . The Yard got in Thailand credit ( O.D.) for over 300,000 US$ , and is probably the only Yard apart Seat Boat .

Then there is no need to perform any stop and go in the works and this generate other savings .

These are the main reasons why RB cats are low cost and so convenient ; this is why we got 19 boats in construction and orders for 2 years . Customers from all over the world are appreciating our businness policy that is based on prices and scale economy , in order to deliver boats with a very high percent of the money paid , really invested where more counts : in the boat .


Thanks for the attention

RB Power & Sailing

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