Low price Catamarans

[kengrome]

Ken just visited your web site. you claim to be a boat builder and thus you should know all the ins and outs of the trade.

Don't be ridiculous Graham, no builder knows all the in's and out's of the trade. I know a lot about specific building methods and design work, and I don't have any problems dealing with the dishonest local businessmen any more, and I do a damn good job when I build a boat whether it's for me or someone else -- but that's about it.

perhaps you can answer my last post re coremat

I would if I could but I can't so I won't. Sorry, it's not one of the materials I've used since I was building in Hawaii. I'm thinking of using Hexacor for some of the boats I've designed recently, but I haven't used that material yet in the Philippines either. See how ignorant I am?

When you buy a car at the showroom the garage takes care of all legal documents etc for you. most customers would not know what docs etc were required. the honest garage does this for you. The same for an honest boat builder. he should make sure that all correct ducumentation is supplied and signed properly.

You don't honestly believe this, do you? Wow, I knew some people were naive about contracting to have a boat built but I never realized how naive ...

I'm not saying this to insult you, but Graham, there are almost NO similarities between buying a well proven, uniformly produced, high volume manufactured product from a long established dealer in your local neighborhood in the USA ... and contracting with a foreigner to have a one-off seagoing vessel custom build for you half way around the world.

By the way, what gave you the idea that you should trust the builder to write the contract for you? Usually when you go into a construction contract (of any kind) you try to get as much of the contract written in YOUR OWN TERMS as possible because that's the best way to clearly define exactly what you're hiring the builder to construct for you as well as to control the process at whatever level you're most comfortable with .

Wow, at least now we are finally getting to the core of the problems here ...

I assumed this guy was an honest guy and that when I ordered the new boat the builder would see to the paperwork and documentation. the lack of any documents proves that something is wrong.

Well yeah, I guess you're right about that. I mean, when a builder can get you to pay without a decent contract of any kind, I guess he is really a good salesman, or the buyer is exceptionally naive ... or both.

have you had another email from *****?

No, but I never expected any emails from him in the first place so who knows what's in his head?

It's not like we are working together or competing against each other either. I'm in the Philippines and have almost no business to speak of, and he's in Thailand with a huge and growing business, so we're not exactly doing the same things in life, are we?

I think the only reason ***** emailed me is because I stood up and challenged the claims you guys kept making -- claims none of you were justifying -- and maybe he saw this as me defending him or something. That one dude who bugged out earlier, Mr. Kenneth Stone (aka Been-Robbed), decided to disappear as soon as I started asking him questions he didn't want to answer, so maybe ***** liked that response too. I know I would have if I were him.

Whatever the reason he emailed me, I sure wish he would send me one of his overload customers once in a while too. I'm not exactly overloaded with work here if you know what I mean ...

[BEEN.DONE.]

HI
ray quoted:-
"........and it sounds even worse when ***** doesn't try to correct these assertions. Frankly, if I were thinking about having a boat built offshore, the assertions have planted enough ......."
funny that ***** suddenly appears
and through another boatbuilder??!!??
As ken grome is trying to find out what documents i have and is very impatient to see them (***** LIKEWISE) i will post my posts at my own speed.
ken
you seem to have a lot of time on your hands no jobs at present?
you are getting a lot of free advertising here.
have you stolen a few potential customers from *****? he will be pleased.
the honest dealer/ builder does the honest deeds. don't forget that.
if you don't want to post here, it's ok
my message is clear potential buyers you have been warned.
i will post at my own pace.
any more e-mails from ***** ken? don't answer if you don't want to.

[BEEN.DONE.]

i see our posts have crossed.

[propshaft]

BEEN.DONE.
Sorry to say, but only guy with zero experience can order this boat to carry passengers at sea. Electrical propulsion??? Wavepiercer??? Nonsence.

What is expected wave height in Your area? Speed and duration of trip?

[robert self]

Hi Been.done,

Below are photos from *****'s **********'s website showing the launch of your boat. Am I wrong about this being your boat?

http://www.********************/boats...ectric-42.html

What is going on? Everyone looks happy. Very large outboards on the back end of the hulls and the hulls are not submerged as far as your photos in an earlier post show.

cheers
rself

[robert self]

Originally Posted by kengrome

Hi Robert,

The last time I gave a potential customer a ballpark figure for a strip planked bottom and plywood / epoxy / fiberglass composite sandwich catamaran hull in the 30-40 foot size range I think I told him $7.00 per pound for a hull / deck / cabin finished on the outside but unfinished on the inside, or $12.00 per pound for a hull that's completely finished inside and out.

The second price includes built-in wooden furniture but not the fixtures and related components such as heaters, stoves, sinks, etc. that need to be purchased separately and not built from scratch ... and neither price includes the parts or labor for the sail and/or ICE propulsion system and related components.

The truth is, I much prefer to build for $9 per hour plus materials rather than working under the cloud of a fixed contract price. It's more fun to build a boat when I can focus on quality construction and not worry about my bottom line, and my bottom line is simply not an issue when my profit is built into the hourly labor rate.

Hi kengrome---Just curious. Thanks for the numbers!

[propshaft]

Situiation seems clear with BEEN.DONE. He has ordered a) wrong boat concept b) for very low budget. And now is trying to blame builder for that.

[kengrome]

Situiation seems clear with BEEN.DONE. He has ordered a) wrong boat concept b) for very low budget. And now is trying to blame builder for that.

I agree more or less, although I think it's more accurate to say he accepted a design that did not comply with his true expectations and this mistake caused or contributed to all the other problems. Even if his concept were sound, the failure to get the specs written into a legal contract is the big issue here.

Perhaps the next time the following steps might be taken to avoid such problems:

1- Write specific draft/displacement parameters into the design contract.

2- Hire a separate consultant to confirm that these parameters have been met BEFORE paying the second half of the design fees, and especially before commencing construction.

[robert self]

As a current client, one thing I realized after my visit to ***** **********'s Pattaya boatyard(s) was that he has the roll-a-dex. What's a roll-a-dex?
It is the list of local vendors who supply the myriad of materials, expertise, launch site, etc. needed to build and launch your dream boat.
We can only imagine what, where and who ***** can tap to achieve the desired result. He has invested time and cash to discover and establish
good relations with those vendors. That investment is not free. ***** deserves a profit margin for his investment and providing the service.

Due dilligence is certainly required BEFORE commiting to RBC. However, after commiting, the unhappy client might want to apply the same due dilligence to investigate the relative cost of going outside of *****'s sphere of
influence. If the client can't speak Thai, doesn't know the area, doesn't know the vendors, doesn't have access to good carpenters, etc., then he might want to step back, think clearly, maybe swallow some pride, and think twice about rash actions. The appropriate saying in the US is, "he has you by the nuts".

A lot of clients like to pay in stages. The reality is that your future value to *****, or any builder, diminishes as you pay your stage payments. In the negotiation stage for a $100K boat the clients future value is $100K. The client has some power. The builder wants your money. After making $80K in stage payments, the clients future value to RBC is $20K. After making the last stage payment the clients future value is $0. Contracts are written so that the boat has to be finished to the owners satisfaction before the last stage payment is made. However, if the builder has lots of cash flow from new clients you may have to wait your turn because you have very little future cash value and therefore (perhaps) very little influence. Toward the end of the project the client is dependent on the builder. Then the trust factor comes into play. But, hopefully, the customer is compensated by having the boat he expected. Signed contracts, specification lists, attorneys, Thai civil court, all that aside, it is the rare inividual who will persue the case. It is probably safe to say that if you detect you are getting burnt don't throw good money after bad. The sly client might say at first that they will want more than one boat. If the builder wants the future projects they'll do a good job on the first build.

cheers
rself

[kengrome]

You make a lot of good points robert, thanks. for clarifying this. The fact is, it takes hunderds or thousands of hours of time and effort to set up to do business in a foreign country. Information is very costly in terns of its acquisition in foreign countries, and good information is critical to success.

The reality is that your future value to *****, or any builder, diminishes as you pay your stage payments.

This is often true but not always. For example, when you hire me to build on an hourly + materials basis your value to me is never worth more than the next month's payment. Here's why I say this:

Although I would like to think that you'll keep the money flowing so I can continue to build until your boat is finished, the reality is that you own the boat at every stage of construction when you hire me on a 'time + materials' basis, and therefore you can stop paying and take your unfinished boat elsewhere any time you feel like it.

Obviously this would be an inconvenience for anyone not living here, but at least it is possible -- so naturally I must 'do a good job' for you every month, because this insures that you will be satisfied and therefore continue to fund the boat's construction until I have actually finished it. If I screw up or don't do things the way you want early in the game, you will be very tempted to take the boat out of here and have it finished elsewhere, at which time I would lose all the 'future value' you're talking about, right?

So even though there is certainly a risk to the buyer that I as a builder might cheat you (for example by charging more for materials and/or labor than I actually put into your boat, or using cheaper materials than I promise to use) the benefit that goes along with this type of deal is that you own the boat 100% at all times -- whether it is finished or not -- and therefore you have every right to stop sending me money and take it away at any time ... and there's nothing I can do about it.

On the other hand, a fixed price contract gives you no ownership rights until the boat is completely finished and paid for according to the contract terms. Why? Because you've promised to hire me to build a boat from start to finish, and therefore I have every right to require you to pay the full amount of the contract. But if you own the boat while I'm building it you might take it away prematurely, and then I can no longer live up to my obligations under the contract.

So ... when it's a fixed price contract and you refuse to make intermediate periodic payments you are in default of the contract, and my protection in this situation is to continue to own 100% of the boat so you cannot hurt me any further by taking it away.

One should never forget that when there's a fixed price contract in place, the builder has every right to change things in the boat's construction right up until the time he receives his final payment and delivers the boat. So as the buyer you have no right to terminate the contract simply because you don't like the way I did something in the middle of the project. After all, maybe I am simply going to 'undo' my mistakes later, before delivering the boat -- and I have every right to do this in a fixed price contract!

[RB PowerSailing]

Greetings from Thailand....

[robert self]

***** is such a shy guy he won't identify himself.

[brian eiland]

I will post this short note as I need to follow this subject thread, and have not had time to read thru it.

[masalai]

Not much to read - seems to have sorted itself out by default - - - De fault of the complainant who has not filed any documentation to support his bleating....

[robert self]

Originally Posted by kengrome

On the other hand, a fixed price contract gives you no ownership rights until the boat is completely finished and paid for according to the contract terms.

Hi Kengrome,

I took a look at my contract. It says I own the boat and any equipment or materials purchased for the boat, to the extent I pay the stage payments. However the builder has a lien on boat and materials and therefore the builder also have to insure the boat as it is being built.