Low price Catamarans

[robert self]

Hi all,

I like the way balance is being brought to this discussion by senior members masalai and kengrome.

If been.robbed had stuck around I would have liked to know if the defect list produced for his 42ft cat was produced by a marine surveyor? If yes, then what did
that marine surveyor assess the value of the cat at that time? If the assessd value was within limits considering depreciation for any item taken "off the
showroom" (used car vs new car) then we'd be able to evaluate how much he had been robbed.

I count 3 unsatisfyed clients of ***** **********: Been.robbed, been.done and siam sailor. All had boats delivered but problems arose that they contend should
have been *****'s responsibility. Then there are 3 current clients with boats in the process of being built: myself, ccoh, and pocketjunk who are neutral to positive. But, as
been.done has point out:

Originally Posted by BEEN.DONE.

I NOTE THAT THE ONLY POSSITIVE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR RB ARE FROM CUSTOMERS WHOSE BOATS ARE UNFINISHED. IT IS OBVIOUS THAT THEY CANNOT GIVE ***** A BAD REFERENCE. I RECALL CLEARLY THAT I WAS IN A SIMILAR POSITION. WHERE ARE ALL THE HAPPY CUSTOMERS?

their are no past happy clients who have taken the time to contribute. I assure you ***** is well aware of this discussion and the 100 or so hits a day it gets.

Originally Posted by masalai

been.done & other "victims", The feeling I get from this thread is that one gets what one deserves. - - In business there is a phrase "due dilligence", and it seems to me that business experience is sadly lacking in the "victims"...?

In the interest of "due dilligence", serious clients of ***** **********'s products might want to visit Pattaya and charter a RB34 at http://www.ladysampan.dk/about.html
I have gotton a positive recommendation from the owner, Mr. Lindberg, by email. His rates are $250 for 4 hours and you can spend the time checking out the boat and questioning him on the process of having the boat built, etc.

I've uploaded a pdf showing a time series of my monohull being built by ***** **********'s yard.

cheers
rself

[rayaldridge]

"PLUMBING DONE WITH ELECTRICAL CONDUIT PIPE
- please post the agreed upon specs for this item"

Ken, should it really be necessary to specify that your plumbing is to be done with non-toxic pipe?

I know only what I've read here about the situation, but although I agree that it's up to the buyer to be wary of deals that are too good to be true, a seller offering a deal that he knows to be too good to be true is a dishonest seller.

If someone offers to build me a seaworthy craft at a certain price, takes my money, and then delivers a boat that is not seaworthy, then that someone is guilty of fraud, even if the contract does not spell out every detail.

How can you excuse plumbing with toxic pipe as something the buyer should have specified better? How can you excuse putting mild steel fittings in an anchor roller? How can you excuse a water-saturated plywood hull in a boat less than a year old?

As I say, I only know what I've read here. But if been.done. is telling the truth, he was indeed robbed. He may have no legal recourse, but that doesn't make it right.

The attitude that if someone is dumb enough to be robbed, he deserves to be robbed is becoming prevalent among tradesmen here, and I understand that it's even more prevalent in Asia. It's an ugly thing that erodes trust and damages trade, and it's to no one's advantage but the borderline criminals that subscribe to this moral system.

***** may be the greatest guy in the world, but if he short-changed somebody and built a boat that will fall apart in ordinary service, then he must expect that the victim will do his best to let other potential customers know about the experience. That's why reputable yards stand behind their work, correct errors, and bend over backwards to satisfy even "difficult" customers. In the age of the internet, builders must be even more scrupulous in making sure that customers know exactly what they are buying before they buy it, or they'll have to suffer the consequences of bad publicity, as we have seen in this thread.

Of course, there are jerks on both sides of the buyer/seller divide, and maybe ***** is being treated unfairly. He'd better get busy and do a little damage control, and at least tell his side of the story.

But if the surveyor's take is accurate, I don't care whether or not the buyer was stupid and/or didn't perform adequate due diligence. The builder put his name on a piece of crap, and that doesn't speak well for him.

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[kengrome]

Contrary to one of the accounts in this thread, ***** submitted a very detailed, European-style contract, with appropriate long-term warranties, and fixed price that included a large number of additional items that I had specified (everything from ground tackle to electronics).

Hello ccoh,

The quote above comes from your post #28, and since we're talking about contract terms now I'm wondering if you're willing to post your contract -- so we can see the difference between yours and the last sample contract page that was posted in this thread?

Others seem to claim they have less detailed terms in their contracts with *****'s company, and the last example page posted certainly bears this out. I would like to see just what kind of 'detail' ***** can put into a contract when he feels like it, and from your post it sounds like you have the best example of this type of contract.

[masalai]

How can one excuse the buyer who expects a $750,000 boat for $170,000?.... words are fine in their place, and now the place demands document-able facts (contract against photos and surveyors report/analysis....)

[propshaft]

BEEN.DONE.
How much did You pay for Your boat? I know that passenger boat of this size will cost over 4 million baht. Have You checked other yards before contracting RB?

[kengrome]

If been.robbed had stuck around I would have liked to know if the defect list produced for his 42ft cat was produced by a marine surveyor?

In my opinion it doesn't matter who made Been-Robbed's punch list anyways, especially if many of the items on the list shouldn't even be there. A marine surveyor might list all kinds of things that should be done to correct the boat's deficiencies, but that doesn't mean the items he lists were required by the contract, does it? And it's the CONTRACT between the buyer and builder that matters here, not what some after-the-fact surveyor has to say about it.

If the contract never required ***** to provide waterproof seats, outboard motor lifts, seacocks, auxiliary fuel filters, hatch locks, battery charging, and some of the other things Been-Robbed was whining about, then what gives Been-Robbed the right to complain about these things after-the-fact???

Nothing, that's what.

It is possible that Been-Robbed simply wants what he wants -- even though he never bothered to specify these items in the beginning in his contract with ***** -- and now that he has finally 'wised up' he is using his Internet smear campaign in an attempt to get ***** to provide them free of charge. If this is what's going on it is totally unethical behavior on the part of the buyer because instead of accepting responsibility for his failures he prefers to blame everything on the builder even when he knows it's his own fault.

Been-Robbed may very well have some justifiable complaints, but so far he hasn't given us anything in terms of evidence to prove his claims, and that's why I say 'good riddance' to him and others like him who are unwilling to provide references or documents proving their claims.

----------------------

None of this would happen in the first place if buyers were more responsible with their money. We are talking about more than a hundred thousand dollars here -- so why do people avoid hiring an attorney for a few thousand more to write up a proper contract as additional insurance?

Or why don't they hire their own private inspectors to go in and take pictures of their boats being built every day, and have these images sent to them via email? Local people in the Philippines would love a simple and almost effortless job like this for $100 a month because that's twice what any local company will pay for 8-12 hours a day of their labor, and I'm sure it's a similar situation in Thailand as well.

I invite buyers to live right here at my shop so they can 'stick their noses' into their boat building projects all they want if that's what they feel like doing. We don't have nice accommodations here, but the city is only a 1.5 hour aircon bus ride away for a whopping fare of $1.50 each way, so they can easily come out to the shop daytimes while we are working then return to the city for dinner and entertainment every evening if they like -- and still keep daily track of our progress personally.

We can finish faster this way too, especially if the buyer does some work on his own boat while he is out here, instead of sitting there in the shade all the time with a tiny umbrella drink in his left hand and a native girl fanning him on his right:



Sometimes it astonishes me the way people are so focused on saving a few bucks that they ignore the far more important goal -- which is to take the proper steps to preserve and protect their existing capital. There are lots of ways to avoid these kinds of problems if only people would use their imaginations. Maybe that's the problem, they have no imaginations any more ... although after seeing this native girl picture again I can tell you that my imagination is still working!

[rayaldridge]

Originally Posted by masalai

How can one excuse the buyer who expects a $750,000 boat for $170,000?.

How does one excuse the builder who let the buyer believe he was getting a $750,000 boat for $170,000-- and then delivers a worthless piece of crap?

An honest builder should tell his customers the truth. He should quote a price that reflects a satisfactory standard of build, when bidding for a job. It is dishonest to bid on a job knowing that the only way you can do the job for that price is to do a crappy job. As I say, I know only what I've read here, but I'm pretty sure ***** does not advertise that he's willing to build a worthless piece of crap, if that's all the buyer wants to pay for.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned.

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[rayaldridge]

Originally Posted by kengrome

If the contract never required ***** to provide waterproof seats, outboard motor lifts, seacocks, auxiliary fuel filters, hatch locks, battery charging, and some of the other things Been-Robbed was whining about, then what gives Been-Robbed the right to complain about these things after-the-fact???

Nothing, that's what.

Ken, I consider you one of the good guys, and I wouldn't hesitate to hire you. I have a lot of admiration for what you're doing, and I wish I were that brave. But I wonder if you've considered the consequences to your own reputation when you defend things like the use of toxic pipe in the water system, or mild steel in deck fittings, or a plywood hull that's saturated with water after less than a year afloat?

Are you saying that, for example, you wouldn't have a problem with using toxic pipe, if the buyer failed to specify something non-toxic in his contract? From what I know of you, I don't think you'd do that.

Businesses have always had to contend with bad word-of-mouth from dissatisfied customers. Scammer companies used to be able to avoid the consequences of bad word-of-mouth by various tactics, like changing their name or buying up smaller companies and exploiting their customer base. But in the internet age (and this is particularly true for big ticket companies like builders of large craft) disgruntled customers can have a seriously bad effect on future business, if their complaints are not satisfied in some way. If they're just malicious grudge-holders, then it behooves anyone who wants to stay in business to demonstrate to the online community that the accusations are false. Even if it subtracts from the bottom line.

A reputation for good work, once lost, is not easily regained.

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[propshaft]

'Non-toxic pipe' - this word does not exist in Asia
Everybody use locally available water pipes or hoses, not certified.

[masalai]

At the risk of being outrageously rude - "caveat emptor" is as old as the hills.... You only get what you pay for (if you pay peanuts you may get lucky and employ monkeys)

[sctpc]

This thread reminds me of the ones about Monohulls and catamarans or to have insurance or not its crap and none will agree execept DONT TAKE THE RISK WITH THIS GUY as he is not going to give a 750k boat for 150k so let move on.

And catamarans are best and you should have insurance. :~)

[kengrome]

Ken, should it really be necessary to specify that your plumbing is to be done with non-toxic pipe?

The guy who complained about this only said ***** used electrical conduit instead of water pipe, he said nothing about it being toxic. Who says electrical conduit is toxic?

Ray, the contract should clearly spell out the type of pipe that's to be used, along with the other important details. I do not think buyers should just proceed blindly and accept whatever the builder feels like installing simply because he calls himself a 'boat builder' or because he has managed to convince the buyer verbally that he will do a good job. These kinds of problems come up only when the contract is not clear, so why not put the details into the agreement before the project begins -- and avoid all this crap from the beginning?

If someone offers to build me a seaworthy craft at a certain price, takes my money, and then delivers a boat that is not seaworthy, then that someone is guilty of fraud, even if the contract does not spell out every detail.

No one has complained that his boat is not seaworthy, so I'm not sure that arguments about seaworthiness apply here.

In fact I heard that Benn-Robbed's boat has been used (and/or is currently being used) for charter operations in Thailand, and even though I asked him about this in one of my previous posts he chose to ignore me -- probably because he doesn't want it known that the authorities in Thailand have approved his boat for commercial charter use because in fact his boat *is* seaworthy.

How can you excuse plumbing with toxic pipe as something the buyer should have specified better?

I'm not excusing it, but I did notice that this is the second time you've claimed that electrical conduit is toxic. Who says so? Where's your evidence? Do you actually know what kind of electrical conduit was used? Metal or plastic? Which type of metal, or which type of plastic?

There are several different kinds of electrical conduit and most of them are made of the same materials as 'approved' water pipe -- only they are not strong enough for the high residential or commercial water pressures used in land-based systems so they are not approved for water pipe use on land. But since you say this pipe is toxic maybe you can tell me what specific type of electrical conduit was used?

How can you excuse putting mild steel fittings in an anchor roller?

I'm not excusing anything, but the person making these claims has not proven that an anchor roller was even part of the contract -- much less that the contract specifies the use of stainless steel for this item. If ***** specified the use of stainless steel, then clearly he is at fault for using non-stainless when he promised to use stainless. But without a document specifying the material to be used for the anchor roller, the builder can use whatever material he feels like using. In fact, the builder doesn't even have to provide an anchor roller if he doesn't want to UNLESS it is specified in the contract. But where is this contract? The buyer is not willing to post it!

All I'm suggesting here is this:

Don't jump to the conclusion that every complaint these buyers are making is true. You should trust them only after they have posted evidence to back up their claims. Until then none of us knows if these complaints are baseless or valid. I've lived in Asia long enough to know not to trust everything someone tells me, and it's not always the Asians who turn out to be the liars ... there are plenty of foreigners willing to lie to get what they want too.

How can you excuse a water-saturated plywood hull in a boat less than a year old?

Once again I'm not excusing anything, but so far we have no evidence that this claim is true either. On the other hand it may be, and if this is actually *****'s fault then this seems to be the most serious of all the complaints I've seen so far.

As I say, I only know what I've read here.

I guess I'm a little more skeptical than you because I cannot even assume that the things these buyers have been posting here are true. For all I know it could all be BS. You may think I'm misguided in my decision to distrust such comments until evidence is provided, but that's what living in Asia does to you when you're in business over here. People frequently have a way of justifying their lies when it means they can get what they want. This is more frequent in Asia than in the USA but it is certainly not limited to Asia by any means.

If been.done. is telling the truth, he was indeed robbed. He may have no legal recourse, but that doesn't make it right.

Maybe he was robbed, and maybe he no longer has any recourse ... and I agree when you say 'that doesn't make it right' -- but I agree with this because I'm looking at the situation from a westerner's perspective, which you are too of course. However, some people grow up in different cultures, and some of these cultures teach that it is absolutely acceptable to cheat the other guy when you can in a business deal ...

In fact Asians frequently judge each other's business capabilities based on who managed to cheat the other most effectively. There is no such thing as a 'win-win' deal with some of these people, instead it is typically a full-on, no-rules fight -- and you're considered to be a foolish loser and an incompetent businessman if you fall for the other guy's tricks rather than being intelligent enough to avoid them.

Sounds like the Wild West, right? Now you're getting the idea, only the Wild West was far more ethical than what some of these guys do to their business associates over here. So naturally, when a foreign buyer is so naive or inexperienced or perhaps just too negligent to protect himself properly when dealing with builders half a world away, they should expect this kind of thing.

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- Asians do NOT grow up with the same concept of integrity that westerners grow up with -- and any westerner who trusts an Asian without doing something to insure his own protection is going to be cheated more often than not -- that's all there is to it.

One of the biggest benefits I though I might bring to western boat buyers (by running my own boat building shop over here) is that I am American, and I have a higher level of integrity than most other people I know, including nearly all Filipinos and Asians as well as the vast majority of Americans. My simple thought was that I could give American buyers the high quality they want at very reasonable prices. Then they would never have to deal with an unethical foreigner and possibly risk the loss of their hard-earned money, yet they could still have the boats they desire at bargain prices.

But what I learned instead is that most Americans cannot (or simply refuse to) distinguish between an American-run operation and one that's run by a non-American somewhere in Asia. So they gravitate to the lowest priced deals they can find, many of which are in Thailand or China. Of course they lose the benefit of having me run their projects when they focus on the lowest price instead of the best quality, but time after time I have seen them do this -- and if you want to know the truth it makes me wonder how much Americans actually value quality any more.

???

I have seen a never ending stream of foolish foreigners lose their money to Asian businessman simply because they don't know the first thing about dealing with them safely. They behave just like I did when I first got here -- they trust people at their word. This is the westerner's first mistake because you NEVER trust an Asian to do what he says he will do for you.

Of course ***** is not an Asian, is he? So maybe it's because he's a European that these naive western buyers think they can trust him without a solid contract. Perhaps they think to themselves "Oh well, ***** is a good guy like me so I'm sure he will do the right thing and use the same quality materials I'm assuming he will use, because if I just trust him at his word I won't have to make all that EFFORT to write up a detailed contract with him."

Yeah, right. Stupid mistake #2 is to assume that another westerner has the same thoughts and expectations as you do yourself, and once again this brings us back to the fact that a bulletproof contract is a requirement, not an option. Regular inspections make a whole lot of sense too, regardless of the fact that foreigners would rather 'take a chance' than to pay for such inspections ...

The attitude that if someone is dumb enough to be robbed, he deserves to be robbed is becoming prevalent among tradesmen here, and I understand that it's even more prevalent in Asia.

This has been the prevailing way of life in Asia for literally hundreds if not thousands of years, so this is part of the Asian culture, it's not as simple or superficial as being a recent issue with tradesmen like it is in the USA. It takes a long time to get over your western 'trust' of people you want to do business here -- and the first time you unwittingly trust an Asian businessman it is likely to result in a bad experience in which you will lose money and leave you frustrated and disappointed in your ability to trust people like you used to in the USA.

I was in business in the USA for more than two decades with never a hint of a lawsuit, but the first two years I was here I had already filed four separate lawsuits against what I refer to as 'unethical Filipino businessmen' who couldn't care less what contracts they signed their names to because they never had any intention of doing what was promised in those contracts anyways. Their words suggested otherwise of course, and I mistakenly trusted them at their word which was backed up with their worthless contract signatures.

Live and learn!

Performance is the only thing that matters anyways, and *quality* performance is something that's very hard to find. I thought that by living here myself and becoming the 'insulation' (so to speak) between foreign buyers and the local Asian population I could help buyers to eliminate some of the crap that might hurt them since they are so naive and inexperienced in Asian ways. But there's nothing I can do if they hire builders in Thailand because their prices are even lower than mine. So once again it's an issue of price, and it seems to me that when Americans go shopping for a low price they don't just go for a low price, they go for the LOWEST price -- and the lowest prices in Asia are something ***** advertises right on his website, which makes it very easy for people to hire him compared with other yards which require you to contact them and spend a lot of time talking first before they will give you a price quote.

It's an ugly thing that erodes trust and damages trade, and it's to no one's advantage but the borderline criminals that subscribe to this moral system.

I agree, but much of Asia's business population is made up of these 'borderline criminals'. There is almost nothing you can trust an Asian to do properly for you -- without also hiring someone else to watch and supervise him to make sure he does it correctly. Leave him alone too long and he will find a way to cheat you. The problem is, Americans think most people should be trusted, and Asians think most people should NOT be trusted. Big difference in additudes and expectations, and these differences pervade entire cultures.

Of course, there are jerks on both sides of the buyer/seller divide, and maybe ***** is being treated unfairly. He'd better get busy and do a little damage control, and at least tell his side of the story.

If he has something to hide this could be the reason he hasn't posted here yet. Maybe he thinks if he posts here he will get sucked into something even worse than what's already been claimed, so why risk it? Besides, if people like his low published prices they will still try to buy from him regardless of the warnings. This is what I meant about 'greed' several posts ago. When a person wants something badly enough (or at a low enough price) he will come up with reasons for getting it, even when warned that it will only result in problems. People believe what they want to believe.

But if the surveyor's take is accurate, I don't care whether or not the buyer was stupid and/or didn't perform adequate due diligence. The builder put his name on a piece of crap, and that doesn't speak well for him.

Right, but 'crap' is what comes out of many third-world Asian countries anyways, and my guess is that *****'s 'crap' is already far better than most of the lower quality crap that's being produced by companies NOT run by westerners. It's all a matter of degree ... and although you call it crap some Asians might call it exceptionally good workmanship, especially when they compare it with what they normally produce themselves.

Ken, I consider you one of the good guys, and I wouldn't hesitate to hire you. I have a lot of admiration for what you're doing, and I wish I were that brave. But I wonder if you've considered the consequences to your own reputation when you defend things like the use of toxic pipe in the water system, or mild steel in deck fittings, or a plywood hull that's saturated with water after less than a year afloat?

Thanks for the vote of confidence Ray, and as you've read above I am not defending the things you mentioned. As far as water pipe is concerned I would use the same PVC pipe that's sold for residential homes in the local building supply stores unless the contract specifies otherwise. If I promised to include a hull fitting made of stainless steel then that's what I would do. As far as water infiltration into the plywood hull core is concerned, I would fix it during the warranty period, but it doubt that any boat I build would have this problem in the first place since I'm such a stickler about producing waterproof hulls to begin with.

Basically I build boats the way I would want them built if I were building each one for myself, and when I agree to build something in writing that's exactly what I will do -- no more and no less. The only exception to this is if a particular material or component is unavailable when I need it, then I will try to get an agreement with the buyer for an acceptable substitute, but he will have to pay the price difference if it costs more because it's his boat, not mine.

I have another way to guarantee quality too, although buyers don't use it. I guarantee to build any boat they like for time + materials. By not locking myself into a fixed price that's too low, I will never have a reason to use inferior materials or to skimp on production methods in order to break even or avoid losing money on a project. Of course while everyone understands this reasoning, no one is willing to hire me on this basis because Americans like 'guarantees'. A fixed price with a guarantee always wins over a time + materials price that's half as much.

I prefer that buyers come here and hang around for a month or so too. Then they can see exactly what I'm doing and if they have any questions I can tell them why I'm doing it. They can always 'require' me to build incorrectly too if they insist -- it is their boat after all -- but if they do this I will make them sign an affidavit attesting to the fact that it was their decision to go against my suggestions, so then when they complain about it later I will have documentary proof that they are the ones who wanted it that way, not me.

In other words, I don't think my comments here are going to hurt my reputation unless people misinterpret them, and if they do then I guess that's just the risk I take for being honest and expressing myself in public. If I end up with only one good customer every few years -- someone I can appreciate and who will become my friend after all is said and done -- then that's enough for me.

[robert self]

Hi Kengrome,

Since you are in the boat building business in Asia, please ballpark a reasonable profit margin to build a boat and also ballpark your $ per pound of displacement cost?

thanks
rself

[rayaldridge]

Originally Posted by kengrome

The guy who complained about this only said ***** used electrical conduit instead of water pipe, he said nothing about it being toxic. Who says electrical conduit is toxic?

The surveyor:

> 12. PLUMBING DONE WITH ELECTRICAL CONDUIT PIPE. CONNECTIONS WHERE MADE
> SUBSTANDARD. ( NEEDS PROPER WATER PIPE AND HOSES THAT ARE NON-TOXIC
AND
> STAINLESS STEEL CLAMPS AND PROPER WATER FITTINGS )

In any case, conduit is not approved for potable water use, in any country, as far as I know. I don't know how toxic the stuff is. Do you? The point here is that the customer shouldn't have to worry that he's being poisoned by substandard piping. He has a right to expect safe pipe even if it isn't spelled out in the contract.

Originally Posted by kengrome

No one has complained that his boat is not seaworthy, so I'm not sure that arguments about seaworthiness apply here.

Lack of proper seacocks=unseaworthy

Originally Posted by kengrome

I guess I'm a little more skeptical than you because I cannot even assume that the things these buyers have been posting here are true.

I'm not taking anyone's statements at face value. I'm just saying that it sounds bad, and it sounds even worse when ***** doesn't try to correct these assertions. Frankly, if I were thinking about having a boat built offshore, the assertions have planted enough of a seed of doubt in my mind that I wouldn't consider hiring him.

The internet gives cheated customers a way of striking back at unscrupulous businessmen. I'm all for it. Businessmen who value their reputations have to deal with such allegations, or they lose. The process encourages ethical treatment of customers, and who but an unethical sharpster would object to customers publicising bad treatment? To me, the freedom to complain about unscrupulous business practices is a lot more important than a business's desire not to be bothered with such complaints.

Ray

http://slidercat.com

[masalai]

? $/pound? for a submarine?, steel hulled lugger?, wooden hulled schooner? Teak hulled Dhow?, Hi tech carbon fibre/epoxy hulled racing mono?, carbon fibre/epoxy racing cat?, cruising cat?, and so on ALL would have significantly different answers.... Get real....

If I were Raoual or whoever, in this largely "unsubstantiated" and undocumented series of claims, I would be looking at recourse by defamation action in a US court? and not waste my time defending assertions in the internet...... PUT up or shut up - - - this is getting booring? to post images click the "Go Advanced" button and use the "paperclip" symbol button to select jpeg or pdf images to upload etc..... Post a copy of the contract, list the issues that are of concern and page/para/line# reference along with an image of the offending item on the boat - close up and locating images.....

Please stop crying and bitching, present your case or go away - - - Good will and helpful concern has just about been used up.