Low price Catamarans

[kengrome]

Hello Mr. Kenneth Stone (aka Been-Robbed),

My Original quote was for about 4.25 million Thai baht in 2005 (without rig....approx.$125K USD at that time). It sounded too good to be true ...

... and you've never heard the saying "If it sounds too good to be true it probably is." ???

By the way, is this the same boat that's been chartered and/or used commercially by you and/or others? If so, I cannot help wondering why you've allowed the boat to be used commercially when it is apparently so 'unsafe'? Or is it actually a safe boat, but you just don't like the way ***** did some things when he built it?

This just in...... ***** has a court date this week.....

Big deal. Lots of people have 'court dates' that mean nothing to the rest of the world's population. It seems you're more determined to trash *****'s reputation online than to focus on your own particular problems with him ... or why else would you mention his 'court date' this week when it has absolutely nothing to do with you or your problems?

Perhaps you can be a little bit more focused and detailed with some PROOF of your claims for a change -- such as starting by posting the contract agreement you and ***** made that specifies the use of all the things you're complaining about. I would like to see your responses to these specific issues for a start:

CABIN WINDSCREEN ACRYLIC TO THIN
- please post the specified thickness as stated in the contract

NEED PROPER WATER PROOF SEAT
- please post the specified seat brand and model number as stated in the contract

ANCHOR ROLLER DEFECT
- please post the agreed upon specs for this item as stated in the contract

LOCKS AND LATCHES
- please post the agreed upon specs for these items as stated in the contract

OUTBOARD MOTOR LIFT SYSTEM NOT PROVIDED
- please post the portion of your contract that states *****'s agreement to include this lift system

NO SEA COCKS BELOW WATER LINE
- please post the contract section that specifies the types and locations of all seacocks to be installed

PLUMBING DONE WITH ELECTRICAL CONDUIT PIPE
- please post the agreed upon specs for this item

MAIN SHEET TRAVELER TRACT IS TOO SMALL
- please post the agreed upon specs for this item

NO AUXILIARY FUEL FILTERS PROVIDED
- please post the contract section that requires ***** to provide these filters

SHOWERS DRAIN INTO IMPROPER BILGE TANKS
- please post the agreed upon specs for this item

COCKPIT AFT SEATING IS NOT FIBER AND NOT WEATHER PROOF
- please post the specified seat brands and model numbers as stated in the contract

BOAT DECK HATCHES LEAK AND DO NOT HAVE LOCKS
- please post the contract terms that specify the requirement for these locks

STEERING NOT WORKING PROPERLY
- please post the agreed upon specs for this item as stated in the contract

NO WAY TO RECHARGE BATTERY FOR ANCHOR WINDLESS SYSTEM
- please post the contract terms that require ***** to provide this recharging system

NO ANCHOR RODES PROVIDED, SHORT CHAIN ONLY
- please post the agreed upon specs for anchor rodes and chains


The reason I'm asking for specific details here is that you *should have* specified all these things in your contract with ***** before you sent him any money. You don't just start sending money without a contract, then *assume* the builder is going to do everything the way you might like him to ... or is this what you expect from *****???

After you have posted the contract terms that specify all the items I have listed above, then maybe I will have a reason to actually believe that ***** has 'cheated you' by substituting inferior materials or workmanship instead of doing what he agreed to do for you in writing. But so far, it appears that you have failed to support your arguments with any document that proves your right to complain about all these things -- and therefore I choose to disbelieve most of your claims until I see some evidence to the contrary.

I'm not suggesting who is right and who is wrong here, but I'm getting the impression that you're as much at fault here as ***** is ... and maybe even more.

All I'm asking is that you back up your claims with documented facts -- facts which SHOULD BE clearly written into the contract you and ***** signed before you went into this deal. When you post your contract terms and conditions we will see which of your complaints are valid and which are not, and then we will all understand whether or not ***** has done what he actually agreed to do for you in writing.

The written contract is EVERYTHING in this type of deal.

[concerned]

To anyone who is interested in having a boat built at R&B I would suggest taking the time to call on the phone and/or visit the area and speak to people in the yachting industry and the general community in the Chaonburi/Pattaya area. I did that for a friend interested in having a boat built <removed namecalling from anonymous poster>

[BEEN.DONE.]

Hi been-robbed and all
It is impolite to write all in capital letters ; it is the same as shouting as in angry. Excuse me Masalaiand and all, I didn't fully read the terms and conditions .
cheers
been.done

[kengrome]

Hello concerned,

Thanks for stating an intelligent suggestion that too many 'cheapskate buyers' would rather avoid since their primary goal is a ridiculously low price to begin with, and the thought of 'making a trip' would only mean adding to their costs.

The problem is, most buyers won't bother doing what you suggest, and they will have all kinds of excuses for this decision. Then when they find themselves in this kind of situation some will use the internet to complain about things they could have easily avoided -- if only they had been more responsible from the beginning.

Greed causes people to ignore their common sense and do all kinds of foolish things, that's why scam artists are so successful. People who are not greedy cannot be scammed ...

[Next Jenny]

I have been lurking and reading all the posts about R&B and decided to make my first post.
I have heard from quite reliable sources that at least 3 reputable surveyors have been been treated badly and denied access to more than one of the vessels under construction at Mr. *****'s facility.
The question one has to ask is why would he deny access?
Surely any reputable boat builder would welcome a surveyor hired by one of their clients.

<moderator note: no evidence has been posted to support this claim. Please post facts to back up any claims you make.>

[masalai]

been.done & other "victims", The feeling I get from this thread is that one gets what one deserves. - - In business there is a phrase "due dilligence", and it seems to me that business experience is sadly lacking in the "victims"...?

If someone offered to consider a refund for your "been robbed" expenditures and needed to have your full credit card details to do so - would you?

Would you buy a house over the internet where some pictures were posted - buy mine? - - 2 houses one solar powered $2,250,000.00?

I would be disinclined to "allow entry" if they could not substantiate their authorisation..... ENOUGH ******** and rumour, DO please, post pictures, documentation that can be authenticated... - luckily "defamation" is not a big business in Thailand? as it is in USA...

[concerned]

Hi Kengrome,

I'm not sure if I would call these people who get taken "Cheapskate buyers" or "greedy". I think quite often they are people on a limited budget with a dream of sailing off into the sunset and perhaps that dream clouds their better judgment. We all make mistakes at times.

[kengrome]

Hello Next Jenny,

Are you willing to post the names and contact information of your "quite reliable sources" and the "3 reputable surveyors" which were supposedly deined access to *****'s facilities -- so we can confirm your claims? Or is your recent post yet another case of "I said so and I'm not willing to back up my claims so you'll just have to believe me" kind of post?

Sorry to be so abrasive here, but I'm getting a little bit tired of reading these bad comments and unsubstantiated claims about ***** when NONE OF YOU are providing any evidence to back up your claims. How about posting some facts for a change, instead of "I heard this or that from some unnamed source" blah blah blah ... ???

By the way, I will tell you why a builder might not allow a so-called surveyor come into his shop:

Perhaps the so-called surveyor is not a valid licensed surveyor at all, and when asked to prove his identity with references he refuses or fails. Or maybe he simply 'drops by' without an appointment when the yard requires appointments. Or maybe the so-called surveyor is nothing more than one of the competition, someone seeking free information that he should not be allowed to have.

Falsified credentials are all over the place in Asia, and it NEVER makes sense to allow someone into your shop unless he provides the owner with valid identification and good reasons for being there -- and usually an appointment is a requirement as well.

I'm not sure if I would call these people who get taken "Cheapskate buyers" or "greedy". I think quite often they are people on a limited budget with a dream of sailing off into the sunset and perhaps that dream clouds their better judgment. We all make mistakes at times.

Hi concerned,

You're right of course, sometimes they are not cheap or greedy, but if they are they certainly make themselves easy targets, don't they? Sometimes they are simply foolish or irresponsible ... and later when they learn how foolish or irresponsible they really were, they don't want to accept responsibility for their own mistakes so they blame the builder instead of themselves.

I'm not defending ***** either because maybe he sucks at building boats properly, but if he's that bad at it -- yet his shop is still growing with so many new projects on the table -- there must be plenty of new fools out there ready to jump in where others have already been ...

[Been-Robbed]

Originally Posted by SteveW

First time post-long time lurker.
Does anybody know of this builder in Thialand?
New 42' "sailaway" catamaran for $170,000.

May be one of those cases where if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.

http://www.********************/catamarans-building.html

I don't know who yanked all the chains out there, but I was replying to the above, original question when I started posting on this forum.

Was I naive? Yep.

Is hindsight 20-20? Yep.

Did I expect the guy to do some marginal quality control? Yep.

Did he do it? Nope.

Did he honor any warranty claim whatsoever at all? Nope.

You can believe me or not believe me. I could really care less.

Buyer beware.

I'm done with this forum.

Goodbye.

[kengrome]

Good, we got rid of one whiner who was not willing to prove anything he claimed. Who's next?

Maybe if we can get rid of all the other folks who come here only to bitch about ***** -- without substantiating anything they claim -- we will learn that it is mostly the buyer's ignorance or lack of responsibility or just plain unreasonable expectations that causes them to complain so much, and not the builder's fault at all.

My gut tells me that if Mr. Kenneth Stone (aka Been-Robbed) had had any real justification for his claims, he would have posted his contract terms here like I asked him to -- so we could all see where he was right and ***** was wrong. He certainly didn't have any problem posting his bitch list, did he? But when it came to the contract in which the details were spelled out, he seems to have a problem posting that information ...

Instead of backing up his claims he has turned tail and run -- which is exactly what anyone might do when faced with being caught and publicly exposed with a pack of unjustified complaints that now looks like 'sour grapes' whining because every little detail didn't happen to go his way.

[masalai]

This brings to mind a new word "Tussputaing" - When one expects big "fireworks" and nothing much happens - not even a quiet fart with no smell - all very disappointing and anticlimactic....

Well done KenG - Does Thailand have "useful" defamation laws? - - - the other Ken may be getting concerned?

[BEEN.DONE.]

hi again
THERE IS A GREAT POSSIBILITY THAT ***** HAS MADE SOME OFFER TO YOU GUYS TO TURN THE TABLES HERE. THIS IS A PROBABILITY, NOT A POSSIBILITY. I do understand also that there is no backup docs or pix.
Anyway here is a page from my contract, and it is absurd now, but I never checked it at the time:-
no wood to be used
fully loaded with 40 passengers, luggage, engines, batteries, fuel, water and all boating gear amounts to 2750kg
*****'s water line was 1/2 m below water when i tested it with sand bags to the equivent weight to 30 pax + luggage (75kg + 25kg bags) = 3.000kg
this test was done without engines, batteries tanks etc. a bare boat.
not his problem says he.
loads more to come but i cannot type fast.
more later
cheers
been.done

[masalai]

OK now we (this thread) and your case is beginning to take shape... So how about putting the images and your appropriate reference comments together, along with fixes you have had to make....

I have no connection with ***** (your boats ???) or any association with KenG apart from chatting via this net on other boating matters. The lack of any systematic presentation of your case was beginning to grate, but now, it appears you are prepared to present a better case - - which is good.... I do not seek to expose your case un-necessarily but since you started the story, I guess a copy of the relevant parts of the contract relating to the accompanying photograph per post and see how much better your support from this net becomes....

Where impending court action does not prohibit disclosure, open discourse seems to be favoured by most of the regular posters of the boatdesign net. - - - Your planning and preparation will also help your case - - Go for it Sir... and show us your case....

[propshaft]

BEEN.DONE.
What is that boat? Does not look like passenger boat at all.
Passengers with bags???

Over 12 passengers -> commercial passenger boat -> should be properly designed and built.

[masalai]

I am inclined, with the "wisdom" of over-night reflection, that much of the problem encountered is directly the responsibility of the buyer. - - - It is simply foolish to expect fine silk when you pay for cheap cotton seconds. In the page of the contract displayed, wording is VERY vague and open to interpretation, and brand names/specific product descriptions are lacking eg "ferari mesh of x rating and y colour etc.... on all trampoline areas as per design"...????????