Tiki 38 under sail
many persons requested a photo of the Tiki 38 with sails .
I can confirm that the boat is sailing really well , fast and easy to tack . I calculate the saving of weight in some 350 kgs , respect an original Tiki 38 built in plywood .
Steering is just perfect and even Luca's young girlfriend can hold the tiller without any danger ...
Very practical the modification to the swim ladder , now molded in fierglass , that can see in another photo .
[quote=E3Nomad;253172]People have asked about Creed's Tiki 38, and RB would have us believe that everything is just fine.
There were also significant questions about the integrity
of the steering, the rig ...
Dear Friends ,
Everything is just fine with the Tiki 38 .
300 miles of sea trials , with 2 - 4 - and 7 persons aboard .
About 6 hours motoring and many many hours sailing , with different conditions ,including strong wind and waves of 1.5 mts .
Not a minimum problem . nothing at all . We washed the boat , waxed and it is a new beautiful Tiki 38 that is sitting in Kho Chang , waiting for ...
The same 'paperwork' that i mentioned a few times .
Creed , hai fatto veramente una figura di merda , ragazzo .
Funny to see this thread still alive.
I've been following Creed's blog most of the time. This guy for sure knows boats. He has been watching the build process very very closely and was at the yard in person many times.
I am sure he knows every detail of the boat by heart. I don't really believe he would have missed or ignored any structural issues. I also don't think he had any real issues with the finish.
It seemed to me he had a very cooperative working relationship with RB. He was somewhat unhappy with the delay but I don't know how much of this was caused by changes and re-doing things he did not like.
SO what's up now with Creed? I don't understand but financial issues make some sense to me.
On the other hand: Why is RB saying "the Tiki 38 n 109 left Pattaya-Ocean Marina yesterday at 11 am and sailed overnight to Ko Chang" without indicating the obvious issue that it sailed there without the owner?
Why is there even a need discuss overages of 35k and reduce them to 16k? The base price is for sure stated in the contract so if there is a need for discussions it must be caused by things that popped up during the build. Changes by Creed, missed details, rebuilding of items that were not build to specification (or customer expectation).
Each and every change / missed detail / rebuild item should be clearly documented including the cost implications and signed by both parties. So why is there an issue abot the final payment?
Again lots of smoke and dust, no clear indication who is wrong or lying.
I feel sorry for Creed but afterall there may be a nice Tiki available in Thailand. Unfortunately I don't really like Warrams.
just my $.02
Forgot to ask: Why is a customer's boat being used for fun-trips? The girl doesn't really look like a delivery skipper or surveyor a preparing to inspect the rudders?
reply to previous post about Tiki 38
thanks for your questions ; let me briefly answer but please consider the situation , as there are things that should not be discussed in public , at least at this stage .
1. All the modifications are required in written by the Customer ;
2. most of the modifications are based on hand drawings supplied by the Customer , directly ; normally by email . Over 1511 emails only to my address :-)
3. Extra cost to be charged for design modification , is clearly indicated in the original Boatbuilding Agreement ;
4. We are talking of some 62 modifications ; i did not want to publish the list here as is taking a lot of space ; i am posting in order to defend RB when is attacked ; it is ridicolous to claim , from Creed's Side , that the boat is poorly built , when he stated a few times , with witnesses ,and in written , that his boat was the best Tiki 38 of the world .
5. The original contract foresees a final payment of 32,000 US$ . As became evident that the Customer was unable to pay this amount ( let me only say that he tried to loan some money from me , for the Registration and the Marina fee , and used my credit without permit , to purchase extra items for the boat ...) , we required a Cashier Check to be deposited with an escrow agent and be delivered to us after the sea trial .
6. Creed's idea was to just launch the boat and then eventually to pay , when , how much , if .... in a 'friendly' proceeding ...
Let's say that we asked him to proceed in a more 'technical ' way .
7. We asked him to pay for some , at least some , of the extra items . An amount of 16,000 US$ over a value of over 35,000 . We tried our best to keep the good relations and finally reach the completion of a boat that has been delayed by the Customer ( you can guess why ) for about 1 year , continously asking for modifications .
8. All the inventory foreseen in the contract is in place , as confirmed by an independent surveyor .
9. We tried to contact and to meet Creed many times ; he refused to meet Allan in his hotel , when Allan was there to negotiate the delivery , in whatsoever way . In terms of price , installments , time , delivery place ..anything just to help him .
10. He left Thailand without a word . Leaving some money to pay in different places and different persons . Please don't ask the details that i can supply privately . We tried to contact him in Australia . His wife answered and he refused to pick the phone , 8 times ...
11. We asked him to come and take the delivery , pay the Marina as foreseen by the contract and then we issued the invoices .
12. We received a letter from a Bangkok lawyer that stated the Creed did not know about the sea trials !!!! and he did not know about the modifications . We inmediately answered with the emails , where is evident that He Booked the Marina and was then aware of the next day sea trial ,and many emails where he required the modifications and emails where he confirm that he would pay the extra charge . 19 days after that , no more emails , letters , calls . Just absolutely nothing . We believe that his lawyer recommended him to pay . There is absolutely no way to claim that he did not know about sea trials or he did not asked for he modifications .
13. We had an agreement with Ocean Marina , that is fully booked , to keep the boat there for a maximun of 10 days . This is why we had to move the boat to Kho Chang . Please notice that i had to pay nearly 100 US$ / day in Ocean Marina , then delivery fees to Kho Chang , deposit and payment for the Marina overthere, a security guy to sleep aboard all time as the boat is under our responsability , then Registration fee , insurance etc . .... not few dollars , just to see the things from my point of view .
14. We have been forced to launch the boat , in order to avoid a claim that the boat got problems , and the typical ********s of who don't have the money to pay and is hiding behind a finger ..
I believed that Creed would have paid soon , this is why i did not specified that the customer was not aboard . Again , on a forum , i try to defend RB when is attacked , but i am not here to point the finger of my customers , unless to answer to a precise , and false , accusation .( post of E3Nomad)
15. There is no doubt that the boat is well built , sailing well , looking well and there is no doubt that the reason why Creed is not taking the delivery , has nothing to see with the boat . I receive every day emails from potential clients , interested in Tiki 38 , that have seen the boat or the photos . A few from Kho Chang and from Ocean Marina .
16. The girl is at the helm ( she is the girlfriend of Mr. Luca , who sailed the boat to Kho Chang ) as Luca was on the dinghy , trying to take a photo wit hte boat sailing .
I asked him to show the sails , as i was expecting some claims , that we don't have the sails or other accusations. So , to shut the mouths , so to say .
I asked Luca to carry 10 persons in order to show the waterline fully loaded . He could find only 7 persons . The boat left the mooring for about 15 minutes , just to take some photos . No fun trips , unfortunately .
In the meantime we properly tested the boat , mainly in Pattaya and during the delivery to Kho Chang , and we can confirm that is sailing very nicely ; How Creed can claim a problem to the steering or the rig ??? He never tested the boat , as he refused to show up for the sea trials !! It is just ridicolous .
17. Still hoping to see Creed show up with the payment and take the delivery . Getting every day more difficult to believe , but still there is an hope .
18. I am available , privately , for who wants to verify these statements , to supply the prooves .
I believe that , after you have seen the photos , it is hard to believe that the Customer is not taking the delivery , unless for a very obvious reason .
I hope this long email , and the photos , will give a clear picture of the real situation . Thanks for your time .
There are obviously a lot of disagreements over what was contractually agreed and should be paid for and I am sure that eventually this will be resolved as per the contract. I assume that some of the disagreements are over whether the stage completion met the agreed quality specifications and not just the timing of the completion.
I would raise one point regarding Mr. O'Hanlon's Tiki 38. In his blog one of the last entries raised a concern over softness in the skegs and indicated that RB and himself were to review. RB then indicate in this thread that the skegs are sacrificial. From the photographs the rudders appear to be attached to the skegs which means that you would potentially lose your rudders in the event of debris breaking free the skeg. This would make offshore use of the boat rather hazardous?
Hello everyone, my name is Chris Harrell and I worked with ***** for 12 months. Sure we had our disagreements, not unusual for a Chairman and Plant Manager in a high pressure situation and production a high priority. I left the yard due to health problems exacerbated by client pressure. I can remember some of the cost over runs, one being the issue of the pods, there were two built out of glass reinforced nidacore and filled and finished to a high standard using epoxy and microballons.
The first out of 15mm was deemed to be too heavy and was scrapped. The second built to plan out of 10mm Nidacore was highly modified and changed from the plan, and was also scrapped. I remember that all we did for this was cover the yard costs with no profit to the yard.
I estimate that 4 workers spent at least 5 weeks on this. Some of the material was reclaimed and used on other projects including the Tiki.
Other cost over runs include:
Marine grade anodised alloy masts
Customised boarding/ swim ladder
Local hardwood ripped and finished in house for the galley counters and chart table.
Customised nidacore ladders for access to the cabins, the interior overuns included originallly filling with epoxy and microballoons and grinding it off. In house produced gel coated GRP panels attached to red cedar battens to line the 4 cabins.
The photos shown by ***** of the interior above speak for themselves.
The interior took an age to complete and was constantly changed or modified by the owner, occasionally the drawings were misinterpreted by yours truly and we took the loss.
The cross beam lashing blocks were through bolted with stainless bolts which aren't specified in the Wharram drawings.
Red cedar slats for the beds to allow air to circulate through to the mattresses.
I personally produced the first list of extra costs, which ***** discounted after negotiation with Creed.
I like Creed and admire his achievements however I am bitterly disappointed at the way the delivery has denigrated to this situation. I also hope his health issues are improving.
In every boat there are increased production costs mainly due to (i) increased material costs (ii) Volatility of the currency markets (iii) Customer changes to the plan.
I have only known of one ship built exactly to cost, Brittania, she was fitted out next to the aircraft carrier Victorious, which was undergoing extensive re-fit. No prizes for guessing where the invoices went when the budget was reached for the yacht!
From personal experience from discussions with ***** when assessing extra costs with him, he insisted that we don't fleece the customer and the invoices were approved by him before being sent out. An operation of the size of RB is not a charity but a profit making organisation, sitting at your computers it is easy to forget the dirt, dust, fumes and sheer physical labour of boatbuilding in temperatures of 30 degrees plus, 6 sometimes 7 days a week.
The hardest working man in the RB family, and yes it is a family, is RB himself, a lot of the bitterness from the few dissatisfied customers is self induced and in my view could have been avoided.
I have finally spoken out on this forum to clear up a few points. The list of cost increases on the Tiki are by no means complete, but are the main points.
With regards to the skeg, yes the rudders do locate on a 316 stainless pin however the rope hinges would still be intact and integrity of the steering should not be affected.
It appears that two of the four rope hinges are attached to the skeg - if the skeg is broken free does that not potentially compromise the rudders? Why would you make the skegs sacrificial rather than integral to to hull?
Just knew I would forget another main point, the hatches to the cabins were built to accept Lewmar Ocean hatches. This was then changed to Maurice Griffith type hatches, involving grinding and chiselling off the already finished coamings on the already finished hulls and installing the MG hatches with scuppers and drain holes.
Another job which this time was completed at the yards cost was to increase the height of the aft beam boxes on the rear hulls, in Nida Core and GRP 2 carpenters 5 days, and 2 finishers 3 days, it all adds up
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