Low price Catamarans

Originally Posted by dutz

I'm finding this thread to be an invaluable resource for due diligence research on Thai boatbuilders. A person can get a good feeling for what goes on in the back office and behind the, "everything is perfect" ,websites presentations.

I'm more interested in the pre-conditions for launch then the launch itself. How large is the off-contract balloon payment? What are the terms of the indemnity aganist structural defects? Will there be a "keep silent" clause? Will tiki38 submit to these pre-conditions or ?.

Dutz....do you understand "Paperworks"??... $$...

[dutz]

Originally Posted by Alik

I don't think that internet forum where anonymous users post rumours and defamation is a source of anything.

My Dear Mr. Alik and Informed Boat Buyers,

On the contrary, anonymity is essential to avoid weaponized defamation lawsuits

Originally Posted by RB PowerSailing

i have been discussing the issue with our lawyers and RB group decided to proceed legally in any country ,
against calumnies and defamations , of the past and -hopefully not - for the future . Even in Thailand finally IP traces
are now a legal way to identify the author of any post . Every offence to the country of Thailand will be reported as well .
RB

and threats of defamation lawsuits

Originally Posted by robert self

10/29 I arrive in Pattaya to verbal threats of a defamation suit because I post in this forum and confiscation of my passport "while the case is investigated" all from *****'s employees Allan Ganz and Flavio Gatti.

Certain classes of citizens in Thailand use the defamation law to silence legitimate complaints.
For example:

http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2006/1562/

Please read the link, very scary stuff, huh? Foreign clients are even more susceptible to extortion right before launch.
What are you going to do, take the boat by force or accede to any and all last minute demands?

You, Mr. Alik, are a naval architect and business associate of RB. He makes money, you make money. You are not an
independent voice.

The RB company has been in operation for 10 years. This thread, dedicated to the enlightment of foreign buyers
to the aggressive business practices of Mr. **********, is the result of his cumulative indiscretions.

In contrast, the builders of the Hans Christian line of yachts, located down the road from RB, have been in business
20 years and have an untarnished reputation due to the high re-sale value of their product and straight-shooting business practices.

If a thread like this one was started for the Hans Christian boats my guess is that current owners would flood the thread with praise.
Why? Well, for one, vested interest. Builder reputation goes a long way on the resale market.

For reputation and resale reasons alone I'd expect current owners of RB built boats to be submitting posts to this thread. Where are they?

For the record, a link to this thread is number 6 on results of a google search on "***** **********". Anyone seriously thinking of
giving RB $100K+ for a boat will, I hope, read this thread and, without prejudice, make an informed decision.

Thank you for reading this anonymous post.

[Alik]

Originally Posted by dutz

You, Mr. Alik, are a naval architect and business associate of RB. He makes money, you make money. You are not an independent voice.

Besides RB, we deal with more than 20 builders worldwide, about 50% of them in Thailand. This gives a good picture of the industry, so my voice is not really independent but sure it has a value.

By posting this anonymous insinuations in this respected forum, You are damaging the whole boatbuilding industry in Thailand. That is why my suggestion to any potential customer before undertaking a project here - come and see the yard and the boats in person, wherever RB or any other builder.

Originally Posted by Alik

Besides RB, we deal with more than 20 builders worldwide, about 50% of them in Thailand. This gives a good picture of the industry, so my voice is not really independent but sure it has a value.

By posting this anonymous insinuations in this respected forum, You are damaging the whole boatbuilding industry in Thailand. That is why my suggestion to any potential customer before undertaking a project here - come and see the yard and the boats in person, wherever RB or any other builder.

Right...! come to see the yard and the boats in person, and don't forget to bring "paperwors".... like someone else... joke!!

[RB PowerSailing]

[quote=******* Boats;251142]Right...! come to see the yard and the boats in personQUOTE]

Hey !!!

Albert/Luigi , please STOP sending these guys to my yard !!

Dear ALL , please don't come to RB Power & Sailing : bad boats and bad reputation ; please Dear Valuable Customers , readers of this useful anonymous thread : find any other boatyard and visit as much as you like

Hey Dutz , give me a moment ; i will open another account , anonymous , where start spreading sh..... ehmm , useful informations , that i recommend you to take carefully note

Com'on buddy , who can take in serious consideration these things ? Anonymous calumnies , bad words and fake stuff . Do you really believe that anybody , all over the world , would be believing these things ?

I recommend to everybody to change thread and read more serious ones ; can learn a lot from Boatdesign , surely not here .

Good bye

RB

[RHP]

So whats the solution to all this bickering?

If there is a problem it needs to be put right, if there isnt a problem then time to close the thread.

If the sides cant come to an agreement it needs to go to commercial arbitration.

One way of the other though this exchange of catty comments needs to come to an end and people get on with life.

Just my penny's worth.....

[robert self]

Originally Posted by RHP

So whats the solution to all this bickering?

If there is a problem it needs to be put right, if there isnt a problem then time to close the thread.

If the sides cant come to an agreement it needs to go to commercial arbitration.

One way of the other though this exchange of catty comments needs to come to an end and people get on with life.

Just my penny's worth.....

This thread was started to answer the question: are Mr. **********'s low prices for catamarrans built in Pattaya, Thailand too good to be true? In my opinion, based on my relationship with RB and conversations with former RB clients the prices are to good to be true.

You don't seem to get it. The bickering and catty comments are the solution.
Read every post by Mr. **********, the company managing director, and you will get a much better sense of the man than from any conversation over a spaghetti dinner. Every post, every word written in this thread informs buyers to be on guard.

If you are in the market for a new car you go to the library, consumer reports, internet, your friends, etc. and inform yourself about prices, reputations, warrantys, etc. from local vendors. This thread is just another source of information. No better or worse than doing a fly-by of the RB boatyard on a 2-week vacation in Pattaya.

[RB PowerSailing]

Originally Posted by robert self

This thread was started to answer the question... Every post, every word written in this thread informs buyers to be on guard.

I recommend to any yard , to check the potential buyers and be on guard

Serious Yard , as Ferretti , ask the buyer to open a Letter of Credit for the full amount , before start the construction ; if RB would have done the same way , we would have built less boats , yes , but have had less negative posts , as they come from persons that basically could not pay for the boat ;

Low price catamarans : this is just real . With the ecception that we build also low price monohulls

The real story is that low price boats tend to drag cheap customers ... not many .. but someone .
Now a cheap customer is usually very difficult to handle , complains about everything , keep changing idea , wants everything at no extra charge , typically cannot afford even to fill the diesel tanks when the boat is ready , cannot afford to pay the mooring , cannot , cannot , cannot , but wants , wants , wants ..... can end up in a controversial and a cheap person can only complain on this website ,as it is free .

Mr. Self , i see you very active but you forget to answer to the 4 posts that are related YOUR problem ....

YOU are a typical example : complaining when had time 6 months to pay an invoice and RB tried in every possible way to avoid the auction of the boat , but nothing to do . YOU even helped to sell the boat , and a month later , start the posts . What i say here is clearly proven and well documented , in my posts ; what you say , are just words .

Best Regards

RB

[robert self]

RB modus operandi:

1) Low bid, will build for low nominal price.

2) Prefers a malleable client who will allow him to "take care of all the technical details". Accepted practice, like my contract, is for the client to pay in advance. Client does all the "trusting".

3) At first, very accomodating, does not want to scare away new cash prematurely. Later on, to assure quality, you need to be constantly reviewing his work (see Tiki 38 blog) else you may end up like siam-sailor, been.done, or also.concerned.

4) At about the half-way point watch out for the money squeeze. I was invoiced 2.5 months before contract-specifyed work was even scheduled. At that point he was already sitting on a 10%-12% profit margin but wanted more cash. When I objected, first he said "trust me", then he called it breach of contract.

5) Beyond the half-way point I personally do not know what can happen to the client. Review the posts of been.done, also concerned, and siam sailor. Possibilitys are that RB will require the following before he will launch your boat: a balloon payment over and above the contracted "delivery" payment, release from the contract's warranty, special indemnity aganist structural defects.

6) RB does launch boats. No question about that. The question is do the owners of these boats get value for money. For comparison you need only look to the asking prices of used Hans Christians (also built in Pattaya) to know that they hold their value. RB has been building in Thailand for 10 years. Has his boats held value?

Every client has to make their own economic decision. Cut your loses or give the guy more $. If you are not personally inspecting the build or have an independent surveyor (disappearing cost savings) you are vulnerable. I cut my loses at the half-way point when RB breached the contract. I consider myself to be one of the lucky clients. I lost half as much as I could have. Trust was gone. Why? Thuggish behavior by a RB employee (which I can't prove...should have had my digital voice recorder...but it did happen), threatening temper-tantrum emails (write me offline and I will send copys), finally a blinding disregard for the contents of his own contract (the client has absolutely no rights......RB believes that "The point is that you are not required to certify anything").

Promised cost savings to the client, due to low Thai wages, will only be wishful hoping if it gets folded into RB's 45% profit margin. Unfortunately you won't find out until you are 65%, 85%, 95% into the project. Then, if you don't have the stomach for a protracted lawsuit (RB's ace in the hole) you'll eat the lose and take what he gives you.

I hope this has been helpful.

cheers

rself

[BlueSwan]

Appears to me that you, Robert Self, are a miserable, lonely, cowardly and obviously not too intelligent individual. Have read your emails, makes for some of the best entertainment on the net. Shot your (robert) self in the foot. I would be too embarassed to show my (robert) self in this forum again. Seems to me that you are such a righteous person and everyone that may disagree with you is a thug. Stick to the issues, play the ball and not the person.

[RB PowerSailing]

Dear All

let me clarify and answer to some uncorrect points that are published in a previous post :

1. RB Power & Sailing delivered over 100 boats in the last few years ; These boats are in Thailand and in many other countries at the moment .

2. all these boats have been built following a Contract and some Specifications.

3. We never had a single case of Ballon payment or extra charges or unexpected charges or any increase of the contract price .

Who said this , would please give the example , as it is a lie . It just never ever happened .

Our boats are contracted at a certain price and are delivered for this price .

4. Extra works , required by the Customer in written , if realized , are charged the normal tariff that is extremely cheap for instance . Normal and straight businness practice .


We would please the author of the post where these things are written , to please provide the examples . invoices , names , please ...

5. Warranties details and limitations are clearly indicated in our Boatbuilding Agreement that is signed prior to any construction .

We face sometimes works to perform under warranty , and we just do it .

6. WE NEVER EVER EXPERIENCED ANY STRUCTURAL DAMAGE ON OUR BOATS .

Again , awaiting for the examples as i read that this happened and i know that is not true .


7. Value for money :

I just noticed that a previous customer of RB , that built here a Lavranos 36' , is selling this boat ,about 40 % more expensive then what he paid here ..

Ocean Marina , Gulf Charter board outside their office . It is there to check . When i say something , i can proove it

Is it value for money or not ?

3 owners of the RB 34' built in the past times consider their boats worthing more then what they paid for . Are they right ? sure .

1 of them sold the boat , for a bigger value then what he paid for . i would say that this fact is common with our boats .

Did any of our previous customers lost money with our boats ? Sure , someone . It is a matter of good maintenance and care . with a boat it is easy to lose money .

The owner of RB 42 that was a frequent writer on this forum , ( he probably lost the password as he used to write with different nicks ) , left his cat abandoned in Ocean Marina Pattaya for over 7 months . He had to face some damages and this is normal .

A good maintenance schedule is the best way to protect the investment and get a good value after many years .

Best Regards


RB

[fullcave]

Still even you must admit that these customers were not happy with the service or quality of workmanship and feel that they got fleeced in the process. :-(

[RB PowerSailing]

Originally Posted by fullcave

Still even you must admit that these customers were not happy with the service or quality of workmanship and feel that they got fleeced in the process. :-(

I believe that the problem is on 2 boats only :

1. RB 42 "Island Breeze"

2. RB 42 Electric ( monotype )

I believe that those 2 boats were built at a normal and more then acceptable standard .

Both customers were happy at the delivery , after inspection and sea trials , as prooved with photos that i already supplied .

I believe that both customers did not know what means own a boat , maintenance costs , cleaning , fixing and taking care on daily base .

The sailing cat owner had in vision a tropical sailing in the sunset , when drinking a Martini , during his charter businness ! Nice ! But what about cleaning the heads after the charter day ?

Maintenance costs and troubles were just too much for them .

Both boats were left abandoned and suffered some damages , and this is unfortunately part of the game .

RB had a clear responsability as we lacked in informing the customers about the maintenance and did not provide a clear maintenance schedule . By that time we are now more conscious of these issues and our office is trying to offer a better after sale information and service . Sometimes it is not easy as many customers operate on budget base and , believe it or not , they don't want to adquire even an insurance !

Best Regards

RB

[RB PowerSailing]

For people who are talking about low quality boats in Thailand and
high quality boats in US,please look at this:

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/ge...tram-63-a.html




RB

[2farnorth]

I want more pics of the native girl fanning me while I am drinking a cold one