How to reduce costs for rig/sails (Sango from Woods)

[Blacky]

Hi all,
need your help. I am planing to build a catamaran for my family.
Dont have much money. 8000€ is maxiumum + cost for the trailer.

Requirements:
- very simple to build
- ply/epoxy (not rounded)
- trailerable without demounting (shortest time from trailering to sailing is a must)
- accommodation: 4 berths (2 adults, 2 chrildren) and possibilty for 4 people to sit at a table under a roof (cabin, nacelle would be great)
- payload: at least 600kg
- goal: coastal cruising around europe for 1-2 weeks with 4 people
- short building time and minimum costs is much more important than a good looking boat
- high beam for safety reason

Sango from Woods is my favorite so far!

Now my problem is: How to reduce cost for rig and sails?
Most people focus on building the hulls, but cost for the rig will be much bigger portion I think.

First Idea:
Take used rig and sails from an affordable used boat.
Sail Area of Sango is 32,4 sqm - dont know which rig of similar size is found often on used market.
Maybe I should make it the other way round: first look for rigs which can be found often on used
boat market and then find a suitable boat design.
Hobie 16 or 18, Tornado, e.g. But these are relativly small.
Any idea for a design that suits to a tornado rig?
Hobie 16 fits to Gato Especial from Lunada Design. But this boat is too narrow and small. Hope to
find a way to build a bigger one.

Second idea:
Build the rig and sew the sails by myself for the sango.
Is that possible? Any experiences with self-building/sewing rigs/sails of this size?

Third idea:
Mix sango hulls with wharram rig and sails. Wharram rigs and sails could be self built afaik.
Good idea? Possible?

Fourth idea:
KD 650 (http://www.ikarus342000.com/KD650page.htm) from Bernd Kohler. Rig can be self built I think.
But the gunter rig main sail seems to be even difficulter for self-sewing than an normal main.
And I am sceptical because of no dagger boards and asymmetrical hulls. And no cabin.

Which one is the best idea?
Any other suggestions?
Thank you very much!

Blacky

[catsketcher]

Richard frequents this forum and will probably have his own input.

For mine I would not worry too much about compromising the boat to get a rig that suits. There are many mono hulls and racing multis that you may be able to get second hand gear from.

The J24, Melges, Magic 25 and Etchells are all good for donor rigs because of their cut-throat racing. If the sails get slow they get replaced. Look at the size of the Sango mast and get a similar sized mast (section no length) from a mono. Don't spend much because you will probably update the rig when you get extra cash.

I would not worry about making my own multi sails. They are under lots of stress and the ex racer sails have heaps of life in them and are cheap. My brother has an Etchell rig on his 60s Spencer design. He pays about $200 every five years for a nice newish main. It won't be fully battened but will be fast anyway.

Look out for old broken sticks. I got a new but broken Etchell mast (1 metre from bottom break) for my 6 metre cat for $100. Plenty long enough for me. My 6m cat used a 16ft skiff rig but this is too light. At 25ft you may be able to look around for a cast off Farrier rig. Farrier sailors can get into the racing and you may able to pick up a cast off here.

Start building and keep your eyes and ears open. By the time you get to the rig you will have found a bargain somehow. Buy some ply and start.

cheers

Phil

There are two points which should be taken care of.

First
trailerable and cat does not go together in central europe. At least not in a size to accommodate 4 people on journeys.

Second
the given budget is a joke for a newbuild of the required size.

Recommendation
forget about the cat, and the desire to build. Find a second hand trailerable mono. There are thousands in that ballpark.

Regards
Richard
(the real, not the other Richard)

[Richard Woods]

I was pleased to hear you like my Sango design. It will do all you want and despite Apex1's comments can be legally road trailed in Europe and carry 4 people. As of course can many other trailable multihulls.

As always I side with Catsketcher.

Our Merlin uses a J24 genoa as a screecher. The Macgregor 26 genoa is also a similar size.

If you want a rotating mast then a Hobie 18 rig would make the most sense, but you might have to cabin top mount it as Ralph did on his Wizard (see my website for video of his boat) to make it long enough. If you get a complete Hobie 18 you can also use the rudders and deck gear on a Sango.

If you accept a fixed mast then you have far more choice as you can easily buy a used small cruiser mast. I bought an 11m long used mast for my Gypsy for GBP50, say EUR60

You can probably find a Dragonfly racer who has old sails you could use.

To save money you will want to build the ply hulls not the strip plank ones.

If you search around during the build you'll find what you need. I rarely have enough money to complete a boat when I start. As I said elsewhere, don't scrimp on the hulls if you are short of money. You can never change them, but you can upgrade the rig when funds allow.

Hope this offers some encouragement, if you need more please feel free to email me direct (not a PM though as I don't read those)

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

[Blacky]

Originally Posted by apex1

Second
the given budget is a joke for a newbuild of the required size.

Are you sure?
I have good buying conditions in wood wholesale industry.
Some equipment I can take from the monohull I already have.
Maybe I can take a cheap rig and sails from a used boat.
I am very pragmatic, function is much more important for me than good looking high gloss yacht stuff.
So why should it be impossible?

Originally Posted by apex1

Recommendation
forget about the cat, and the desire to build. Find a second hand trailerable mono. There are thousands in that ballpark.

Dont destroy my dream.
I know what second hand trailerables cost. Thats not the point.
As a boy I once found a half bicycle in a small river. I repaired it, painted it and made a "new" one out of it. Of course it was more expensive than a better second hand bike. But it was an adventure for me and a real success. I was proud of it. For me it was the best bike. Its the same with a boat.

[Blacky]

Originally Posted by Richard Woods

I was pleased to hear you like my Sango design. It will do all you want and despite Apex1's comments can be legally road trailed in Europe and carry 4 people. As of course can many other trailable multihulls.

As always I side with Catsketcher.

Our Merlin uses a J24 genoa as a screecher. The Macgregor 26 genoa is also a similar size.

If you want a rotating mast then a Hobie 18 rig would make the most sense, but you might have to cabin top mount it as Ralph did on his Wizard (see my website for video of his boat) to make it long enough. If you get a complete Hobie 18 you can also use the rudders and deck gear on a Sango.

If you accept a fixed mast then you have far more choice as you can easily buy a used small cruiser mast. I bought an 11m long used mast for my Gypsy for GBP50, say EUR60

You can probably find a Dragonfly racer who has old sails you could use.

To save money you will want to build the ply hulls not the strip plank ones.

If you search around during the build you'll find what you need. I rarely have enough money to complete a boat when I start. As I said elsewhere, don't scrimp on the hulls if you are short of money. You can never change them, but you can upgrade the rig when funds allow.

Hope this offers some encouragement, if you need more please feel free to email me direct (not a PM though as I don't read those)

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

Thank you very much for your advice and encouragement!
I forgot to mention that I need electronic plan files (e.g. dxf) for a CNC cutting machine. I can let make the CNC cuts nearly for free and it would save a lot of time. Can you offer this?

Originally Posted by Blacky

Are you sure?
I have good buying conditions in wood wholesale industry.
Some equipment I can take from the monohull I already have.
Maybe I can take a cheap rig and sails from a used boat.
I am very pragmatic, function is much more important for me than good looking high gloss yacht stuff.
So why should it be impossible?

That was not mentioned before! Of course if it´s almost all for free, you probably end up with even less?



Dont destroy my dream. war nicht meine Absicht!
I know what second hand trailerables cost. Thats not the point.
As a boy I once found a half bicycle in a small river. I repaired it, painted it and made a "new" one out of it. Of course it was more expensive than a better second hand bike. But it was an adventure for me and a real success. I was proud of it. For me it was the best bike. Its the same with a boat.

Thats a competely different story now!

Good luck btw.

[Richard Woods]

The Sango was designed before CAD and CNC machines were commonplace, so the cuddy, cockpit etc were drawn on paper. The hard chine hulls, though, were drawn more recently, so yes you could have DXF drawings for the bulkheads.

But I bet if you and I stood in your workshop, each with a couple of sheets of ply I would have the bulkheads marked and cut out by hand before you had loaded your car with the ply, driven to the CNC machine, unloaded them, got the guy to cut them, taken him for a drink in payment and driven home. And I reckon I'd have used less ply (in part because I'd have made the bulkheads in sections)

And you cannot really use the CNC machine to cut more than just the bulkheads, pretty much everything else has to be made to fit what you already have. You are after all building a boat.

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

Originally Posted by Richard Woods

and despite Apex1's comments can be legally road trailed in Europe and carry 4 people.

Whishful thinking Mr. Woods!

According to YOUR own website this boat is 4,50 meters wide! By NO means you are allowed to transport that boat on EU roads with a ordinary trailer. That would be a "Special Transport" by Truck, guarded by the police and two safety vessels on a (partially or completely) closed road, on a given route. One would pay a fortune for every transport!

Do´nt talk peope into idiotic adventurers, just to sell your products!

Regards
Richard

[captainsideburn]

hmm,
although on his web page for the sango
http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/sango.htm
he doesn't specifically say, I'm pretty sure the boat demounts into a trailerable width.
Most catamarans in this size range demount to trailerable widths

Originally Posted by captainsideburn

hmm,
although on his web page for the sango
http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/sango.htm
he doesn't specifically say, I'm pretty sure the boat demounts into a trailerable width.
Most catamarans in this size range demount to trailerable widths

Well, this:

Requirements:
- very simple to build
- ply/epoxy (not rounded)
- trailerable without demounting (shortest time from trailering to sailing is a must)

was absolutely clear to me!

Ignoring the SOR of the prospective client is bold, at least.

Regards
Richard

[Richard Woods]

Don't be too hasty in your comments apex1!!!

I suggest you READ, rather than look at my website.

There you'll read the statement "The photo shows Sango on a trailer (Wizard is similar). It is legally trailable behind most large cars. "

Sango is a bigger version of the 22ft Wizard, but the general concept is the same. I owned a Wizard for a couple of years. We towed it to Holland from Plymouth and back behind a 1900cc car. No problems. When originally designed nearly 20 years ago I called it a revolutionary design. 22ft long, 6 berths, trailable, standing headroom and 15 knot speed under sail.

Well the first four statements are true, less sure about the last one. I think we went faster than that. (In one race Reg White - gold medal Tornado sailor etc - sailing a Firebird, told us to slow down when we nearly overtook him)

When the folding system was demonstrated to a PBO reporter he wrote
"The whole operation - (unfolding and launching the boat including stepping the mast) - had taken 20 minutes of easy work"

I don't design 8ft wide cruising catamarans as I don't think they are stable enough for use at sea.

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

Originally Posted by Richard Woods

Don't be too hasty in your comments apex1!!!

I suggest you READ, rather than look at my website.

May I give that compliment straight back !?


READ the initial post!

Then tell me you trail a 4,5 meter boat on EU roads.

Regards
Richard

[Alex.A]

Apex1 - you are nit picking - the prospective client already stated he favours the Sango - in the title and text.....

Originally Posted by Alex.A

Apex1 - you are nit picking - the prospective client already stated he favours the Sango - in the title and text.....

I am nit picking...........ahh, interesting!

So, he did state his interest in the Sango (so far, was his statement), yeah I have seen that (I am able to read and comprehend), and did he clearly say:

- trailerable without demounting (shortest time from trailering to sailing is a must)

or not?

Why is this CAT community so terribly agressive when someone comments in a way that could contradict, or is not in line with their preconceptions?

Love it or leave it, no matter which Catamaran we are talking about, trailerable without dismounting and being a sufficient boat to accommodate 4 people is not possible, et basta! or for our English speaking members: period