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  #76  
Old 04-01-2012, 09:28 AM
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Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Baigent View Post
Yes, and also maybe; the T rudder provides pitch stability because it is "locked in" through speed through water - but no rudder foil and yes, there will be pitch problems if the float foils develop too much lift.
The long float trimarans with or without foils, handle large waves extremely well and provide a more stable ride - no doubt about that.
We have to thank Hydroptere team for showing what can be achieved with small floats/wide spread foil/rudder platforms. Still at 60 knots peak boat speed and savage winds ... still things to learn.
=================
Gary, I read an article about the ORMA tris that stated that they designed the ama foil to lift about 70% of the boat with 30% left for the long ama for pitch control. On those boats the only one I remember having a rudder t-foil was Gitana(?) but when the boat flew the main hull the rudder t-foil was useless. That's because, as I understand it, with the main hull up the rudder foil was barely in the water but more than that there was still a diagonal line of uncontrolled pivot between the rudder foil and ama foil. The rudder foil could hold the back end down but the whole boat could pivot up changing the angle of attack of both foils resulting in a crash. One of the 60's experimented with a t-foil on the ama instead of a rudder t-foil-it was simply lowered when they needed it.
Lots to learn from the pioneering work of these guys!

Pictures: 1)Hydroptere pix by Jean-Marie Liot. This is the kind of thing that can happen with surface piercing foilers and "normal" tri's with a rudder t-foil and ama foil. Note there is an "axis of rotation" between the rudder t-foil and lee main foil. Any more rotation changes the angle of attack of the rudder and main foil.
2) retractable rudder t-foil on an ORMA 60-photo by James Boyd of The Daily Sail(click on image)-
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  #77  
Old 04-01-2012, 09:39 AM
BMcF BMcF is offline
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Awesome thread!

My first cat was a Cougar MKII that I restored in the late '70s. I believe the fella I sold it to still owns it and sails it occasionally on Lake Michigan. Then I had a B-Lion for a short while in the early 80s; what a handfull that thing was to sail.

I have a couple pics of the Cougar somewhwere..I'll try to locate and scan same.

Nothing but the run-of-the-mill Hobies since, however.
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  #78  
Old 04-01-2012, 02:34 PM
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Richard Woods Richard Woods is offline
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Just because a boat is making lots of spray it doesn't mean it is sailing fast

I also raced against We/Sebago in La Trinitee in 1988. It wasn't as fast as the other 60fters and didn't point very high

I do remember the foils were removed on Triton, but I cannot remember why/when. It was 25 years ago after all.

Having said that, today I sailed my old 24ft Strider catamaran on Derwent Water. A boat I sold 25 years ago, shortly after winning the 1987 European micromultihull championships. It is now being used by disabled sailors, see

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  #79  
Old 04-01-2012, 03:21 PM
garydierking garydierking is offline
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Here's my Searunner 37 heading up the Molokai channel in the 70's. The spray is courtesy of the NE trades.

Gary
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  #80  
Old 04-01-2012, 04:12 PM
Gary Baigent Gary Baigent is online now
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Sure Doug, Gitana X buried and nose dived lifting the rudder T foil out, therefore the T section was doing nothing ... so that blows my loose theory. However conditions looked extreme to savage and they were pushing too hard when the tri stuck its nose in. Same thing happened to Hydroptere when she crash dived from 60 knots and went end over. Still, no excuse, **** happens?
Richard, fine hulled multihulls; if they're throwing water, spray and steam ... they're going fast.
Here's an embarrassed Gitana X - and another interesting shot from Voile et Voiliers: ORMA 60's Geant (now Voadfone) and Bank Populaire passing shipping.
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  #81  
Old 04-01-2012, 06:20 PM
cavalier mk2 cavalier mk2 is offline
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Here is a historical proa concept. It was reportedly under construction when this was published back in the early 60's. Does any one know how well it worked? The sail idea would make shunting easier.
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  #82  
Old 04-02-2012, 12:33 AM
Gary Baigent Gary Baigent is online now
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When I was at NZ magazine SeaSpray, J S Taylor occasionally sent articles, plans and his distinctive scraper board-like (very black) art work for publication; I think this was a period towards the end of his life. He had spent years in the Pacific and was enamoured with Pacific designs. especially proas ... and also made near unbelievable claims relating to their (and his multihull designs) performances. However we know proas ARE fast sailers but back then, in Auckland, were considered very lunatic fringe. Nevertheless the SS editor published Taylor's pieces - but we never heard of any of his boats being built. Maybe the Dutch owners' example was completed. The out facing outrigger/foil shape is interesting ... it does work.
Rob Denney will probably know.
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  #83  
Old 04-02-2012, 06:36 AM
rob denney rob denney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Baigent View Post
Rob Denney will probably know.
As far as I know, none of Taylor's proas were built. There have been a couple with double ended genoa rigs, but it gets a bit scary in strong breezes when beam on to the wind, and the bigger the boat, the harder it is to keep the luff tight. There are also issues if you get caught aback and it does not work any better than monohull headsails on broader angles than a reach.

The windward hull angled outwards works, but not on a "flying proa", where it is meant to be airborne. And proas are still considered lunatic fringe by 99% of sailors. Which I guess is an improvement on the 99.99% back in the Sea Spray days. ;-)

We/Sebago may have been slow around the cans, but if it hadn't lost a foil, it would have been top 3 in the OSTAR and foils may have become acceptable a lot sooner than they did.

rob
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  #84  
Old 04-02-2012, 11:19 AM
cavalier mk2 cavalier mk2 is offline
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I've always read that the flying proa idea was to have the ama skimming the surface, the hull shown would help it climb on top. I like the rotating rudder drums....In heavy air just the staysail and off wind a flat symmetric chute would work.
The thing I wonder about the ama is getting caught aback as it would certainly dig in.
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  #85  
Old 04-02-2012, 03:11 PM
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brian eiland brian eiland is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Baigent View Post
Excellent find, Corley - Formula 40, a bit too far ahead of its time ... but now carried over to Extreme 40's and AC 45's. The Thompson Triton looked great to my biased eyes.
I'll have to go thru some of my old photos and see what I can find. I was associated with Randy Smyth and Cam Lewes when they first went to France to compete in the new Formula 40 races. Randy showed up quite often at some Prindle nationals on the east coast and the Worrell 1000 events.

I was looking for multihull product to import to the USA....found and brought in the first of the Fountain/Pajot production boats, the Louisiane 37 cat, and subsequently the Dragonfly 25 tri.....1986 or thereabouts
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  #86  
Old 04-02-2012, 05:01 PM
Gary Baigent Gary Baigent is online now
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So I did a little research; We/Sebago came in a close 4th in the OSTAR, broken foil and all, which would have detuned the design considerably; 3rd was Loic Peyron in another foil tri, the Lombard designed 75 foot but shortened bow and stern to fit the OSTAR limit of 60 feet. Lada Poch 2. In many ways, design and dimensions, altered Lada Poch was similar to the Thompson design. The year before, at full 75 foot length, Lada Poch was a clear winner in the La Baule/Dakar, again skippered by Loic Peyron - his brother Bruno was second in the maxi cat Ericsson.
Back to the OSTAR, the two close ahead of Lada and We were the full length float, 60 foot tris Fleury Michon and Laterie Mt. St. Michel, sailed Poupon and Moussy. So although the two foilers didn't win, I'm still calling BS to your anti-foiler performance comments, Richard. Foils of varying types are universal on both multi and monohull race designs today; Lada and We were just ahead of their times.
Here is Lada Poch 2 winning the La Baule/Dakar.
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  #87  
Old 04-02-2012, 05:07 PM
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Richard Woods Richard Woods is offline
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Did you also watch We and Triton racing against the other multihulls as I did?

I was writing about two specific boats, not foilers in general

Richard Woods
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  #88  
Old 04-06-2012, 07:44 AM
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sabahcat sabahcat is offline
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Having a cleanout today so scanning some pages from old Multihull worlds and came across John Gross's Fastback Blackbird




A plywood cat with plywood wingmast, Hot pink shag pile carpet in the pod, a Volvo rear-vision mirror and fluffy dice hanging from them.

His theory on the black decks was they would get so hot that at any given time there would always be some of the crew jumping in the air therefore reducing weight on board
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  #89  
Old 04-06-2012, 07:52 AM
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Robin Chamberlains and Terry Travers "Icecat Challenge"
Heading to Antarctica in this open bridgedeck 38 ft Catamaran

Story is under that HUGE picture

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Historical multihulls-icecat-challenge-1.jpg  Historical multihulls-icecat-challenge-2.jpg  Historical multihulls-icecat-challenge-3.jpg  

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  #90  
Old 04-06-2012, 07:59 AM
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And the rest.
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