Groupama 3-almost 800-Foil Assist!

Groupama using foil assist like the smaller ORMA 60's has pushd to almost 800 miles in 24 hours. Fantastic! Despite breaking the port foil Cammas still expects to break the transatlantic record.
795 miles in 24 hours | Elaine Bunting's blog | Yachting World
Address:http://www.yachtingworld.com/yw/blog/20070621093015blog_elaine_bunting.html

 

Yes pretty impressive, uh?

That boat can do 800 no doubt, I mean 794 to 800 same difference

As i write this they're doing 29 knots instant and 25.6 average past 4 hours, and on their way to set the mark for the Transatlantic to about 4 days, 4 hours, and 20-30 minutes. I.e. about 4 hours better than Peryon's OrangeII.

All this in spite of the broken foil - which seems to have caused an immediate reduction of speek by about 2 knots (35 down to 33) - and in spite of a weather system that was good yes, but not as perfect as that met by OrangeII.

It thus seems pretty clear that Groupama3 can cross the Atlantic in less than 4 days.


It is also quite striking to see this boat beat so many records on its first campaign: trashed Cadiz-San Salvador, trashed Miami-New York, massively improved the 24-hour mark, bettering the Atlantic by over 3.5%... It's to the credit of the team of professionals, clearly well organised, to the shipyard, and to the architects who let Cammas convince them to build an 18ton boat.

As a result, and compared to Orange2, it has 47pc more sail per ton downwind, and 42pc more upwind, despite carrying about 20% less sail. It is also 22.5pc wider i.e. much bigger righting momentum.

Light displacement is the way to go - can't wait until Cammas makes this thing fly the main hull... ;-)

 

Groupama

I read earlier that they were on stb tack when they broke the port foil; apparently they have since tacked/gybed and are on port tack using the stb foil....
No rudder t-foil-
Groupama has propotionately much more RM than the similarly long Sodebo...
Sodebo is 32 m; Groupama 31.5m
Groupama beam: 22.5m
Sodebo 17m
Sodebo 12 tons
Groupama 18 tons
Groupama main+solent 557sq.m
Sodebo main+solent 379sq.m
Sodebo-no lifting foils
Groupama 3 : Franck Cammas's maxi trimaran
Address:http://www.cammas-groupama.com/en/trimarans/groupama3/caract_technique/index.jsp

 

So there you go they did it...

New record just under 4 days and 4 hours...
And that's despite the detour for weather-related reasons, and maybe 20 hours doing 2 knots less than full potential.

No, they don't have a rudder foil - you can see this on the videos of end of contruction / putting the boat in the water.

Sure, given that the G-class, as they call them, maxi-multihulls do not have restrictions similar to Orma, they could go for real foils, for the potential to average 40 knots over 24 hours... But I think everyone for now sees this as too risky. And they're probably right, because that foil they broke, if it had been a vital component, they'd have been out of the race.

As for Sodebo, sure it has less righting moment, and it is lighter and has less sail - but don't forget Sodebo has been designed to be sailed single-handed, so that did put a limit. It's basically a shorter multi-hull with some hull added at the front, to allow for higher high-speed potential, and also to reduce the risk of planting in some of the big waves down south.

Next year we'll have the 40 meter "Banque Populaire" tri launched.

All of this is raising the bar a lot for Hydroptère, now they really have to have a go at over 800nm over 24 hours, before it's too late!

 

Some interesting points:

Orange II set the previous record with a broken rudder that slowed them considerably.
Peyron thought that Orange could have broken the 800 mile day if he had sailed an angle more conducive to a 24 hour record, he was on coarse for the TransAtlantic record so could not deviate.
The trans Atlantic record is very impressive, as is the 24 hour record, the others were a giveaway waiting to be broken by modern boats.
The real test will be when they attempt the around the world---then we will find out if that kind of weight reduction will work out for them. I hope they can keep the boat together for it to break Orange IIs record---it is far from broken yet.

 

Groupama

I think the big news with this boat is that it is the largest boat yet to use foil assist pioneered -to a large extent- by the ORMA tris.
I just hope they take a hint from L'Hydroptere and use some form of radar/sonar to spot crap in the water at or near the surface. The foils mean so much to the speed of this boat that looking at systems to prevent impacts has got to be a priority it seems to me.

 

Like... Oh... My Gawd!

First of all... That's a truly a remarkable statement from a guy who has sworn, what... a dozen times in the past, that crap in the water is not a big deal for foil borne craft. Now, we have the other side of that reality when even faster records could have been achieved if it were not for seriously damaged foils on both Orange2 and Groupama3.

Point made.

Secondly, the most important achievement by this boat of Cammas' is not the foilborne banana thing. That conceptual approach has been done to death by the ORMA boats for many years now. So what.

The real big news about this effort is in the complete design of the boat, it's build quality from Multiplast AND the efficient operation of same by the outrageously professional crew aboard Groupama3. Give the credit where it is due, Doug. The boat is just an object without a whole bunch of talented folks involved with every aspect of its design and use.

That human angle is the real big story here, folks.

 

good point

Hey Chris, good point on highlighting crew work. Guess we end up taking it for granted that there are great sailors out there, to run those boats. But a reminder is always good.

On the foils, it looks like you and Doug go back a long way, not in a good way... ;-) I don't think Doug ever said that banana-type foils were a new thing, he said, and I said, they were a first on large multihulls. Which incidentally is why they seemed to have broken one - I checked the videos, and the team said they had wondered about the quality of manufacturing of that foil from day one. And could only watch when it broke under load (not hitting junk). On Orma tris this has become rare because of the accumulated experience building the (smaller) foils.

Cammas clearly stated in his radio conversations, that the boat lost about 2 knots of average speed, from the second the foil was gone, due to more wetted surface. The average speed data on their site tends to confirm this. I personally think 2 knots is a lot, that's 48nm over 24 hours. (Note: the 795nm distance was set just before the foil broke, so it's not like the boat's potential is 843nm in 24 hours).

I don't know what happened in the past between you and Doug, but clearly radars / sonars will become increasingly important for all types of fast sailboats, as there unfortunately is more junk around. Foils or no foils. Orange II had broken a rudder, and on ocean races it is not rare to see one or more Orma tris breaking a rudder or a foil.

take care

 

Hey DGreenwood,

yes you're right about the Cadiz-San Salvador, and Miami-New York, they were "easier". That's the whole point w a new boat: not being fully tuned, and thinking about the risk of breaking something, you start w records that seem "easier";-)

then came the 795nm, and that was before the broken foil so we can suppose this represents the real potential of the boat - but a boat that has been in the water for only 3 months, and so is probably far from optimised. Compare w Orange II doing not much above 700nm in 24 hours, and ending up at 766.8nm once tuned and once the crew knew how hard they could push. That suggests to me that once Groupama is "tuned" and the crew knows it better, it might be able to get a good deal above 800nm.

For the circumnavigation, of course you're right: to beat this you not only need a fast boat. You also need reasonable weather patterns. You need for the boat to stay in one piece. You need for the boat to not hit a big floating object.

Peyron in his day, had had two false starts, returning w a damaged boat.

I think that Groupama, at a mere 18 tons to Orange's 32 tons, has a much higher medium-air potential, possibly 50nm a day more. I think Groupama has started to show it also goes faster in strong air - just like an Orma tri.
What remains to be seen, and I agree w you here, is whether Groupama is built well enough to withstand a circumnavigation, especially the winds and seas of down south - we can only hope that it is, and experience w Orma tris suggest that it is indeed possible to build a "light" (relatively) boat of "just" 18 tons that can stay in one piece.

Last note, I think we should not forget to scale (yes, I know there are limitations to this exercise, but still): yes Groupama is a good deal lighter, but it is only 31.5 metres long to Orange II's 36.8m (hull, vs. loa of 37.8m). That's a 1.2x ratio. To the cube, since we're talking weight, this is 1.73x. And 1.73x 18 tons, is 31 tons. So it's not like Groupama is that super-light thing, either.

On another note, we'll have to watch whether the future "Banque Populaire V", to be launched in 2008, reaches the targeted displacement of just 23 tons for 40m of LOA. Because that would be very light indeed.

Personally, and as a final comment, I think that Groupama 3 looks great, looks modern, uses modern solutions. Whereas Orange II looks like a large Tornado, like not much progress happened at all.

take care

 

-----------
Wrong. As usual you have confused/selectively remembered some of what I've said in regard to the Moth foiler with what I've said for years about ocean racing foilers.
L'Hydroptere has developed a radar /sonar based system for avoiding semi-submerged floating logs/containers and such. In my opinion, such a system is a requirement on high speed boats doing ocean racing.
=============
This was written in 2006 before I knew that L'Hydroptere was developing such a system and is from the 60' monofoiler thread under "Sailboats":

A personal note: I'm not at all convinced that sailing foilers are a good idea for ocean racing until the electronic systems are developed to spot partially submerged objects in time to avoid them. L'hydroptere was stopped by just this kind of thing. I think all high performance boats would benefit from this kind of equipment and I imagine it's not too far away or may be already available for all I know. Equipment like that would make a venture like this much more attractive to potential sponsors...
===========================================
As to the foils: Groupama is the largest sailboat in history to utilize lifting foils to reduce wetted surface(foil assist). Every G-Class boat has an amazing level of "people power" behind them but Groupama is the ONLY G-class multihull, so far, to use lifting foils to increase speed. Thats a big story any way you look at it and is the cutting edge of technology in these big boats.

 

I think it's fairly safe to assume that you guys (Doug and Antoine) are deeply enamored with the so-called benefits of increased technology, along with its attendant, induced complexities. Fair enough.

The human being oriented observations about the records in question are my take on trying to reel you guys back in a bit on all this fussy technology and how it's so great. It is only as great as the human beings running it, making proper decisions, knowing when it makes sense and also when it doesn't. Until Antoine acknowledged that function, there wasn't mention one about how these records fall due to exceptional sailing, building and designing... all human endeavors and not performed by technology.

A broken foil leads to a drop of two knots boat speed, huh? Is there a message there about over reliance on techno solutions? Interestingly, it hasn't been said what kind of boat speed could be realized with a more conventional foil, since the boat was obviously doing alright without any foil whatsoever.

As to why the foil broke... does anyone really know the answer to that at this point? Was the broken part recovered for analysis to see if it impacted any foreign object or is it just a best guess type of solution?

And what... no spare foils on board for such a committed boat that you guys say needs the technology to set the records? (Implied through the stated drop in boat speed) Imagine an F1 racing team with no fresh tires in the pits. How much does one extra pair of foils cost compared to the entire build cost of the complete boat? And if the team felt the foil was suspicious from the beginning, what were they doing out there save for "winging it"?

Doug, I also think it's fair to say that you more commonly wish to discuss that which is "pie in the sky" types of hit points, rather than observing and dealing with those things which can detract from the full spectrum of the potential in any approach. This is a great posture if you wish to get a rosy viewpoint, but it's hardly grounded in a responsible fashion. I don't care to get into that part of the discussion in all this, but it's out there and on the record as well.

Forward looking sonar systems to help avoid collisions at foiling speed? OK, sure, that's a possibility. It remains to be seen as to how large an object it has to be in order to be seen by the sonar at these revealed speeds. Wouldn't take much of a point source impact to waste a foil right off at the hull line with that hull mass going as fast as these boats do.

And finally... Yes, and forever, the issue of crap in the water will remain the biggest bugaboo for any foiling craft, no matter the size, that wishes to go fast in the waters of the world. As we move forward, this fact will stay on the table: There will be progressively more crap in the water every year and not less. This means more stuff to dodge, more stuff to shut down the so-called advantages, yielding more unrealized potential. To nab another observation from the world of F1 cars… look at how much effort is given to keeping the racetrack clear of debris during an event. The tiniest scrap of carbon fiber from a previous shunt can puncture the very thin tires, ruining an otherwise fantastic drive and effectively parking a multimillion-dollar vehicle in the pursuit of a World Championship.

When you depend on lifting foils, you become the victim of their vulnerabilities.

If foiling boats are to be anything of significance beyond tiny obscure applications (as they have always been) then this issue has to be solved and solved fairly quickly. If not solved, then the coolness of the technology will quickly fade from the tool bag of designers outside of the finicky, specialty race boats.

 

Racing

Antoine, do you know of any racing planned between Sodebo and Groupama 3?

 

No Doug, no racing plans that I'm aware of.

I'm not sure the boats are in the same category, because Sodebo, although similar length, has less power, as it was designed to be sailed single-handed around the world.

This being said Sodebo is also very light, so that its power to weight ratio is actually similar to Groupama's. So in some specific conditions I think Sodebo can probably match Groupama. But overall I think it would fall behind.

Some data below:

LOA: Groupama 31.5m, Sodebo 32m
Beam: Groupama 22.5m (71% of LOA), Sodebo 16.55m (52% of LOA)
Righting moment: Groupama 150 tons-metre (est), Sodebo 110 tons-metre
Displacement: Groupama 18 tons, Sodebo 12 tons
Mast: Groupama 39m, vs. Sodebo 35m
Upwind sail: Groupama 557m2, Sodebo 379m2
Upwind m2/ton: Groupama 30.9m2/ton, Sodebo 31.6m2/ton
Downwind sail: Groupama 828m2, Sodebo 532m2
Downwind m2/ton: Groupama 46m2/ton, Sodebo 44.3m2/ton

Other: Groupama has foils on amas for foil assist, vs. Sodebo has a centerboard on the main hull (much easier for a single sailor)


Another boat to follow will be IDEC. It looks very much like Sodebo, it was designed for the same goal (sail single-handed around the world), by the same architects (Irens/Cabaret). It has the same beam, but is 2.3m shorter, it has a bit less sail area but 11ton vs. 12ton displacement so very similar power to weight. In its first day out sailing by just 8 knots of wind it was easily doing over 15 knots.
The difference will probably come down to the sailors. Joyon (IDEC) is older, but he is also very very tough, has sailed single-handed around the world once (did 1 day more than McArthur, but his boat was a very old concept) and holds the record for 24 hours single-handed around 640nm I believe (of course this will go up once IDEC starts sailing for real). Coville (Sodebo) is younger, has done well on ocean racing, but no one knows how tough he will be around the world.

My bet is that the 24-hour single-handed will soon be close to 700nm.


Then we'll have to see what Banque Populaire V is capable of, in 2008. At 40 metres LOA you'd hope for 850-plus, at least.

Have a nice day

 

Gee Chris!

let me try examine your post rationally. By asking a few questions
(1) "so-called benefits of increased technology". Fair enough, too much technology is never a good thing. Problem is, how do you define too much? How do you say "research up to here is ok, beyond there is too much"? If I take your sentence and apply it, in loops, I can easily justify why one should never have adopted any new technology beyond Columbus' boats. Because, by definition, any newer technology will initially be less reliable / more fragile / sometimes not even better overall (for example, LEDs are still inferior to neon tubes for light efficiency, right now).

(2) you seem, again and again, to oppose "technology", and "human". Well, technology is not some disincarnated entity - it is the fruit of the work of teams of human beings. But somehow you seem to imply that the work of those humans does not count, while you emphasize only the humans whom we see sailing the craft. Sure, to use your F1 example, the mediatised stars are the drivers - but everyone knows the importance of the huge teams of engineers.

(3) yes, Groupama broke a foil. And yes, it lost 2 knots. And yes, when people had the first Marconi-type rigs they were less reliable than the old ones so they broke more often. And no, no one has recovered the broken bits, but the boat felt no shock, didn't slow down, and the manufacturing process had screwed up a bit and so the team, as I said, had doubts from day one. And no, they didn't have a spare on board, but you know projects have given budgetary envelopes, and sure, ex-post, it is easy to say what you spend a couple million EUR and you cannot afford a spare foil at 50k - but there's a point at which you must stop. Sponsors will not infinitely pay. By the way Orange II didn't carry a spare rudder either (though I admit that replacing a rudder is trickier). Your F1 tyre analogy is not very good here - it's more like the wing at the back, if you break it you lose in speed around corners.

(4) foils sound fun, and they seem to be able to bring some benefits - witness the 2 extra knots on Groupama (by the way based on latest reading, they were going fast enough, when they broke it, that they'd have very likely gone over the 800nm), and witness Hydroptere's speed records (though they're still struggling to establish any ocean-going records for now). But as with any new technology, what matters is whether it works, or not. And if it doesn't work, well so be it. And if it works, well great. If you had been in charge of F1 cars, maybe you'd have laughed w/o end at the wings at the back, arguing they were too complex and fragile? ;-)

(5) junk: as I said in my previous post, junk is an issue for all fast boats. On the latest I believe it was transat Jacques Vabre, a couple boats broke a foil / rudder because of hitting junk while doing 30 knots. On the round-the-world race, monohull, single-handed, Ellen McArthur broke one of the two centerboards hitting a floating container, she was then going upwind at about 10 knots. This has nothing to do with foilers, or not - though at least she was able to carry on, if at slower speed, and needing more energy as she had to carry the remaining centerboard over every time she tacked.

(6) so what if foils prove of too little use, or too fragile, to be used on boats that sail around the world? It'll still be fun to watch them being used on super-fast multi-hulls, or Moths, and the like (radio-controlled model boats such as the good-looking one that Doug apparently makes). F1 cars cannot get anywhere but a clean track, and millions watch them, and billions are spend making them run. I wonder why you seem to feel there is a need to take sides, as if there was such a thing as "pro", or "anti"-foil? What there is, is the desire to make sailboats go ever faster, whatever it takes. If it's not foils then fine.

Take care. And take it easy ;-)

 

Sodebo: "have to be careful due to absence of foils"

Just chanced on a short interview of Thomas Coville, skipper of the new maxi-multihull "Sodebo", the 32m trimaran build for single-handed records.

Here are a few things he says:
- boat very easy to sail, very stable
- however due to relatively modest beam (16.55m vs. 18m for an ORMA 60), and power (379m2 upwind vs. 299m2 for an ORMA 60), she goes a bit too easily on one hull
- and, DUE TO THE LACK OF FOIL ASSIST, the downwind hull gets very low in the water when the boat lifts on it, which makes one nervous about burying the bow, and "stuffing it" (apparently architects decided to go w/o foil assist for the sake of simplicity / easier to manage for a single sailor, and also due to the lack of experience w foil assist on large multihulls - Groupama 3 being the first of those large crafts to have foil assist)
- and, due to the lack of foil assist, "it feels a bit frustrating because the boat just does not reach the max speeds than a much shorter ORMA 60 reaches - but it feels like it could reach higher average speeds, for longer"


And finally a note on Groupama's TOP SPEED: before they broke their foil (apparently due to a glitch in the manufacturing process), the boat reached a top speed of 42.4 knots. Give the foils 2 knots, as per the sailors' comments and experience w/ and w/o it, that's bout 40 knots. Comparable to Orange II which also reached just over 40 knots a couple times.


So:
- (1) it's pretty impressive that Groupama should be capable, ex foils, of a top speed comparable to that of Orange II, despite having an waterline of just 31.5m vs. 36.8m. It suggests following possibilities: maybe Orange II is just too heavy; maybe there is a "wall" for non-flying hulls around 40 knots.

- (2) it's pretty impressive that Groupama should have seen a top speed 2 knots higher than Orange II's top speed. If this proves true over a broad range of speeds, then Groupama's potential could well lie a good 48nm over Orange II's. Which is clearly above 800nm, considering that Groupama has already achieved 795 and is a brand new, likely un-tuned boat.

- (3) it's pretty impressive that a boat of fairly classic design (w due respect to light weight, great aerodynamics, and foil assist), should be able to get to a top speed just 5 knots slower than that reached by specialised craft Hydroptère.
It really suggests that Hydroptere would do well to finally upgrade its aerodynamics (the main hull or the arms just look too old).
My personal take here, is that "someone" should try taking a "standard" ORMA trimaran, and fit it w Hydroptere-like foils, and see what one gets! Shouldn't be a problem at least on the surface: similar total mass (Hydroptere given at 6.5 tons on their web site, modern Orma tri's at 6 tons), similar sail area (orma tri 300m2, hydroptere 349m2 but often overpowered), and you'd get all the scale benefits and experience from the orma class, and much better aerodynamics. And the speed when not flying would likely be better