Feasibility of building a multihull and cruising the tropics

[Skint For Life]

Here goes, hope I don't get flamed out of existance on my first post. I've been reading alot on these forums lately, I've read all of the "how-do-cats-handle-big-waves" thread and "Minimum cruising cat-size & cost" I've also read many pages of other threads.

People seem to get annoyed when people don't ask specific enough questions, or give enough detail about their intentions, so here goes, I'm going to lay out as much info as I can think of for now.

My brother and I live in New Zealand. It's cold and miserable here alot of the year. But it is also a great place to live, the summers are great. We have however been entertaining the idea of building a cruising sailing multi, mainly to escape the cold weather here for warmer tropical locations. This thread is to ask questions specific to our situation and see how feasible the whole idea is.


EXPERIENCE:

One brother no sailing experience, other brother one day mono sailing as a child, now owns a 14 foot crestcraft catamaran with only a mainsail, probably max 25hours spent sailing said boat.

Both have powerboat, RIB, fishing pontoon boat up to 7M experience.


FUNDS/SKILLS:

We'd be lucky if we could scrape together $80K NZD at this point. Practical hands on guys, building experience, panel repair on cars experience, have used epoxy 3 times, no glass yet.

One brother no experience welding, other brother has experience welding steel with arc, mig and tig, No aluminium welding experience.


CONCERNS ABOUT THE PROJECT:

Boat safety, I want the boat strong as is reasonable, a little pitbull of a thing, rather than a quick beach cat type.

Single handing, easy sailing, auto pilot, easy sail handling. One brother has a bad back, muscular disorder and low stamina.

Cost.

Feasibility, is this goal too much for us? Financially? Physically? Is all the effort worth it? Is cruising the tropics amazing for more than just a short time?

Income while abroad, is it easy enough to survive comfortably in the tropics?

Where to build it? Richard Woods built boats in his garden, good man.

Pirates Laugh if you will, this is all new to me. How safe are you out there? Areas to avoid? I see somalia is like the gatekeeper of the suez canal, do you have to round the cape to avoid the pirates?

Materials safety is a big issue for us, I have heard and have good reason to believe that solvents cause cancer, here is a local campaign on the issue: http://www.gloveup.co.nz/

The only boat builder I have met had terrible sores coming out on his face, exposure to nasty chemicals/fiberglass? (he was working on a 60 foot cat in his shed which was at least fiberglass on the outside of the hulls)

I have also heard exposure to aluminium can lead to amnesia/dementia (not good when you think of beer cans!)

Is there a safe material to use/live with? I am interested in vacuum bagging, not because I like to over complicate but because I like the idea of minimal contact with epoxy.

Materials workability.

Design.


PREFERENCES:

I prefer the idea of a multi to a mono because I would prefer to go to sea on two/three drums lashed together than a single drum with a big lead weight dangling off of it.

From what I've read I think at this stage I would prefer the boat to be a cat rather than tri, for a few reasons one of which being the higher initial stability.

I would prefer to make a multi that is circum-nav capable, but the main intended purpose would be sailing in the tropics/to and from New Zealand.

I would prefer the boat to be comfortable enough in the tropics to be year round liveable/ possibly perma-vacate down the track.

I would prefer a boat with standing room in the hulls, sitting in the bridgedeck I think would be acceptable/preferable from a design point of view.

I would prefer a smaller boat with less initial build cost/time, less cost of parts down the track, less cleaning/maintenance, easier sailing/single handing, smaller anchor, smaller forces.

I would like to have solar panels, laptop, decent shower, de-salination equipment and two double berths on the boat.


RANDOM QUESTIONS ADDED TO THE ABOVE QUESTIONS:

Why is the heavenly twins so circum-nav capable when I've heard nets on the bow and no deck on the back is the way to go?

Instead of winches are pulley blocks a cheaper but equally viable option?

Taking the above into consideration if we are to go ahead with the project what materials/design/method would be the best to suit our requirements?

Ok, the novel is done for now. It's late.

Skint brothers out.

[hoytedow]

Pirate: Avoid the entire African coast at least 800 miles out. Indonesian and Phillipine waters at least 800 miles out. Malaysian waters at least 800 miles out. Pittsburgh.Disneyland and Disneyworld.

[magwas]

People here used to say that having a cheap boat should not be the reason for building it yourself: you can get a good used boat cheaper.

I think it is true, maybe except if you are an experienced boat designer/builder, but that means you have already spent a heap of money on building boats

They also say that one start small. I think it is also a good advice.

[Tom.151]

Honestly,

Wow... $80k NZD in today's economy that will buy a lot of dreams!

With that budget just go buy a proven used production (molded fiberglass) cruising catamaran - there are lots of very sound boats available in the 25k to 40k range, leaving you with a substantial cruising kitty to be able to go now!

Buying a used but well equipped production boat may well be a lot cheaper than building -- and no chem exposure, no time lost for building.

For myself I'd buy an Iroquois Catamaran - twin double cabins, standup galley, standup head/shower, excellent performance (for a cruiser).

Best of luck

[CatBuilder]

Tom,

I know where there is an Iroquois in rough shape you could get for next to nothing in South Massachusetts if you're handy. It has a hole in one hull (but never sunk) and appeared to be in ok condition otherwise.

It's been abandoned in a guy's back yard by a friend of his and need to be "gotten rid of" (AKA, it's cheap!)

PM me if you have any interest.

Originally Posted by Tom.151

Honestly,

Wow... $80k NZD in today's economy that will buy a lot of dreams!

With that budget just go buy a proven used production (molded fiberglass) cruising catamaran - there are lots of very sound boats available in the 25k to 40k range, leaving you with a substantial cruising kitty to be able to go now!

Buying a used but well equipped production boat may well be a lot cheaper than building -- and no chem exposure, no time lost for building.

For myself I'd buy an Iroquois Catamaran - twin double cabins, standup galley, standup head/shower, excellent performance (for a cruiser).

Best of luck

[sabahcat]

Originally Posted by hoytedow

Pirate: Avoid the entire African coast at least 800 miles out. Indonesian and Phillipine waters at least 800 miles out. Malaysian waters at least 800 miles out. Pittsburgh.

Of course you can back these ridiculous statements up with some sort of evidence cant you?

Something along the lines of a list of yachts that have been attacked and boarded in the Malaysian, Philippine and Indonesian waters in the last 10 years?

Especially as 800 miles out from Malaysia and Indonesia is halfway down Australia

[hoytedow]

Originally Posted by sabahcat

Of course you can back these ridiculous statements up with some sort of evidence cant you?

Something along the lines of a list of yachts that have been attacked and boarded in the Malaysian, Philippine and Indonesian waters in the last 10 years?

Especially as 800 miles out from Malaysia and Indonesia is halfway down Australia

Of course I can't back it up. It is a ridiculous statement, as you say. Especially the Pittsburgh part.

[redreuben]

Pittsburg, Pirates, nice one, LOL.

[Petros]

Sounds like you have the start of a good plan. Join a local yacht club and help crew other peoples sail boats, the best way to learn is on OPY [other-people's-yachts]. This way you learn more about open water sailing, and what you like or do not like in sailboat before you commit a lot of time and money to boat.

Build a dingy in the materials of your choice to get some practice, and than you can use it as a tender on the main boat.

I would consider buying something suitable that is used, perhaps needing a lot of TLC, and than use the rest of your money refitting it the way you want for live-aboard and blue water cruising. IT is I think a false economy to build it from scratch thinking you will save money. Only build it if you like to build, not to save money.

If you get something used but sea worthy you will also have a chance to get some sailing time in local waters over the time you are fixing it up and refiting it. Go look in local marinas and boat yards for repos that did not pay thier slip fees, great bargins to be found that way.

good luck.

[Richard Woods]

NZD80,000 is plenty of money to build a really nice cruising boat. I haven't spent that much on any of my boats. Even my Eclipse cost me less than that, and I had a professional boatbuilder helping me for much of the time.

My initial advice is to do some more sailing!!

Join a club and definitely join a New Zealand multihull association. Everyone wants a crew at some stage, and all multihull sailors are happy to try to convert others. Then you'll get a better idea of what features you like rather than relying on books and forum comments.

There are many more pirates now than in the 18th century. You can see a recent article of mine on the Articles pages of my website. Also check Noonsite.com for more depressing news.

I have spent many years living onboard boats (monohulls and multihulls). Including the last 8 Christmases afloat - in seven different countries. For the last two winters we have been cruising the east coast of the US and the Bahamas, not cheap areas. We kept careful records of expenses and our monthly cost (two people) was about USD600 for all food, fuel, moorings, etc. But not boat repairs or insurance. Statistics say a car costs about USD8000 a year to run, excluding the initial cost and depreciation. So if you can afford a car you can afford to cruise.

You are very right to be concerned about the toxicity of epoxy. MAS epoxy is supposed to be the least toxic, but is hard to obtain outside the USA. I like the System Three epoxies. Always wear gloves, barrier cream. Building a foam sandwich polyester/glass boat is an excellent way to get a strong light long lasting hull with minimal toxicity.

Don't worry too much about beer/coke cans, they have a plastic liner.

I wouldn't personally cruise far on an Iroquois although one did sail to Australia from the UK. Winches are the only sensible option on boats over 25ft I'm afraid. But you only need two, even when using a spinnaker, so costs aren't that bad. Certainly less cost than a watermaker.

Cruising the tropics is great for about four months a year. For about four months you have the daily worry of cyclones/hurricanes. And four months so-so

Hope that helps

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

[Skint For Life]

magwas People here used to say that having a cheap boat should not be the reason for building it yourself: you can get a good used boat cheaper

Thankyou for this, we are not ruling out buying second hand. Our main reasons for wanting to build are:

1. We will know that our boat is sound. We don't know enough about what to look for on second hand boats to feel safe going to sea in an old boat of unknown condition. I read somewhere (something RW wrote?) about a surveyor asking how much lead ballast a catamaran that said surveryor was checking out was carrying. So I am weary of trusting a surveryors opinion on a boat.
2. Hopefully a new boat would mean less maintenance?
3. A new boat will hopefully mean a better/safer design.
4. We can fit the boat out for our needs.

Tom.151 Honestly,

Wow... $80k NZD in today's economy that will buy a lot of dreams!

With that budget just go buy a proven used production (molded fiberglass) cruising catamaran - there are lots of very sound boats available in the 25k to 40k range, leaving you with a substantial cruising kitty to be able to go now!

Buying a used but well equipped production boat may well be a lot cheaper than building -- and no chem exposure, no time lost for building.

For myself I'd buy an Iroquois Catamaran - twin double cabins, standup galley, standup head/shower, excellent performance (for a cruiser).

Thanks for this, we thought we were well under financed for our dream, we are both very happy to hear our dream could become a reality

Where are these boats you talk about in that price range? I must be looking in the wrong place as this is all new to me. Here is where I have been looking:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/browse/sear...rder=price_asc

I do like the no chem exposure bit lost time though may not be as much of a problem though as It should take some time to acquire the skills to handle the boat safely.

Petros Sounds like you have the start of a good plan. Join a local yacht club and help crew other peoples sail boats, the best way to learn is on OPY [other-people's-yachts]. This way you learn more about open water sailing, and what you like or do not like in sailboat before you commit a lot of time and money to boat.

Build a dingy in the materials of your choice to get some practice, and than you can use it as a tender on the main boat.

I would consider buying something suitable that is used, perhaps needing a lot of TLC, and than use the rest of your money refitting it the way you want for live-aboard and blue water cruising. IT is I think a false economy to build it from scratch thinking you will save money. Only build it if you like to build, not to save money.

If you get something used but sea worthy you will also have a chance to get some sailing time in local waters over the time you are fixing it up and refiting it. Go look in local marinas and boat yards for repos that did not pay thier slip fees, great bargins to be found that way.

good luck.

Thank you for all that advice, it all sounds really good We are making enquiries with sailing clubs, trying to find a multihull club in our area. I do like these ideas of finding a bargain, and also where I read somewhere else about getting a donor boat.

Richard Woods NZD80,000 is plenty of money to build a really nice cruising boat. I haven't spent that much on any of my boats. Even my Eclipse cost me less than that, and I had a professional boatbuilder helping me for much of the time.

My initial advice is to do some more sailing!!

Join a club and definitely join a New Zealand multihull association. Everyone wants a crew at some stage, and all multihull sailors are happy to try to convert others. Then you'll get a better idea of what features you like rather than relying on books and forum comments.

There are many more pirates now than in the 18th century. You can see a recent article of mine on the Articles pages of my website. Also check Noonsite.com for more depressing news.

I have spent many years living onboard boats (monohulls and multihulls). Including the last 8 Christmases afloat - in seven different countries. For the last two winters we have been cruising the east coast of the US and the Bahamas, not cheap areas. We kept careful records of expenses and our monthly cost (two people) was about USD600 for all food, fuel, moorings, etc. But not boat repairs or insurance. Statistics say a car costs about USD8000 a year to run, excluding the initial cost and depreciation. So if you can afford a car you can afford to cruise.

You are very right to be concerned about the toxicity of epoxy. MAS epoxy is supposed to be the least toxic, but is hard to obtain outside the USA. I like the System Three epoxies. Always wear gloves, barrier cream. Building a foam sandwich polyester/glass boat is an excellent way to get a strong light long lasting hull with minimal toxicity.

Don't worry too much about beer/coke cans, they have a plastic liner.

I wouldn't personally cruise far on an Iroquois although one did sail to Australia from the UK. Winches are the only sensible option on boats over 25ft I'm afraid. But you only need two, even when using a spinnaker, so costs aren't that bad. Certainly less cost than a watermaker.

Cruising the tropics is great for about four months a year. For about four months you have the daily worry of cyclones/hurricanes. And four months so-so

Hope that helps

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

I was blown away when I read that you have never spent that amount of money on any of your boats We plan to sail more this summer and are looking into sailing clubs. I have read alot on your site, I also checked out noonsite. Scary. Although I'm guessing only a drop in the ocean compared with the amount of boats on the water? I noticed alot of the attacks were near land. Would it be realistic when in pirate areas to stay much further out at sea on a sea anchor or drogue?

Thankyou for the figures, interesting reading. My brother and I would like to moor as little as poss and anchor as much as poss. RE: car costs. we do our own car/engine repairs, so I'm not sure that is as easy for us to work out. Also on the same topic, our concern is that when cruising we will have no passive income. So is it easy enough to cruise working here and there on your travels?

I was surprised you suggested foam sandwich, I thought I read somewhere that you were anti foam and pro ply/glass or just glass. From reading the thread on foam cores and how many were anti it and the problems etc. I was under the impression it was to be avoided by the home builder. I was amazed by what I read on your site about flat fiberglass panels being made on formica bench tops rather than big molds. Brilliant.

Thank you for all your other information

To all following this thread:

I forgot to mention in my first post that I have read "Handbook of Offshore Cruising: The Dream and Reality of Modern Ocean Sailing" (second edition) by Jim Howard. Also that my brother and I have fairly good DIY mechanical skills and have fixed up more than a couple of vehicles and engines.

Also when I said scrape together $80K NZD I really did mean scrape, we own no property, investments etc. To get this amount would mean selling up vehicles and un-needed for cruising possessions. Because of this re-sale and keeping costs down are important to us.

[Richard Woods]

I am not against foam sandwich. I suspect what you read was in relation to smaller multihulls (under 8m) when plywood is hard to beat. In larger boats and for boats with full bridgedeck cabins then foam sandwich makes the a lot of sense.

I suggest you contact a few brokers and look at some second hand boats. At the very least it will give you some ideas and it is always fun to look at boats you cannot possibly afford, just to see how the other half live.

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

[StripOC1]

Hmm, 80k NZ? Many seem to think that is alot of money, but you also mentioned a need for income while cruising. I've had a life's dream of living on a boat in the south pacific. And as a Commercial Diver, Diesel Engine repair, and all around handyman. It's not as easy as getting a cheap Boat! Petros had some of the best advice I've seen here the rest is all sound advice for picking a boat, but living aboard is a different story. After the first year or two its easy to start fealing a bit cramped and you'll find you spend alot of time in harbors and that requires money even in the most affordable harbors. Jobs are difficult to come by even if you have many skills. The best long term strategy I came up with along time ago is too invest in RE and have rental properties managed and sending you a check. Carry a mortgage on your boat and it should give you the ability to write off the income on your taxes. This is just a few more tips, but you really should start small like Petros mentioned and work your way into it maybe even have a backup plan to return to mainland living!!!

[ThomD]

"1. We will know that our boat is sound. We don't know enough about what to look for on second hand boats to feel safe going to sea in an old boat of unknown condition. I read somewhere (something RW wrote?) about a surveyor asking how much lead ballast a catamaran that said surveryor was checking out was carrying. So I am weary of trusting a surveryors opinion on a boat."

If you make a boat, you know what you know from that, but you don't really know it is sound. At some point you have to let go of worries. I have built to plans, and built to my own designs for 30 years now. i can do it all, and am particularly confident in my abilities, at least on 30 foot and under boats. That said making boats is also about knowing where all the compromises and weaknesses are.

Just one example. I did my own rigging. I had the rolled rigging done at a local shop, then i cut to length and nicopressed the other ends. Probably great, so far so good, but when she takes a beating, I always wonder whether the rig will come down... x 50

Also you will be making a lot of very big decisions up front, the general type of boat as to size and all other details. Comparing reputations of designers. For instance, while it is reasonable that you should be concerned about hazards of epoxies, your fears are ridiculous. You haven't really got a hold of the straight dope. this is the kind of information you are equipt with as you make these important decisions.

Not in any way to discourage you, we all started knowing nothing, and jumping in is a sure way to learn.

2. Hopefully a new boat would mean less maintenance?

Right, other than the initial 10 000 hours to instantiate it.

3. A new boat will hopefully mean a better/safer design.

That is possible, but a lot of that comes at huge escalating costs, and all the normal fads.

4. We can fit the boat out for our needs.

That is true, though it is another one of those several thousand hour issues.

Personally, I think for most people the main sensible reason to build, is because you want to. Financially you are rolling the dice on a large chunk of money, when a lot of people never complete, and worse still hurt themselves in the process. It only makes sense if you actually want to do something. It's like sports. I used to row competitively. I like rowing, but that is only about 20% of it. i didn't greatly like the 80% one actually spends time most time on. You have to look at the whole picture and ask yourself how much of the project you really want to do. Are you a completer of tasks, or a quiter. Do you make a living through heavy hands-on work, etc... One little thing to keep in mind is that the part most people love the most, is the first 10 percent. The feeling a dream is coming together, the feeling of talking to lots of interesting folks, spending the first money on plans. Setting up shop, and striking the first frames and molds. Up to about the rough completion of the first hull... The people who love the actual building are happy as clams for the whole process. Though... They sometime don't really care as much about the boat when it is done...

[rayaldridge]

Originally Posted by ThomD

" One little thing to keep in mind is that the part most people love the most, is the first 10 percent. The feeling a dream is coming together, the feeling of talking to lots of interesting folks, spending the first money on plans. Setting up shop, and striking the first frames and molds. Up to about the rough completion of the first hull... The people who love the actual building are happy as clams for the whole process. Though... They sometime don't really care as much about the boat when it is done...

Not to threadjack, but I wonder if the connection goes both ways. There are lots of us (I'm one) who are indifferent boatbuilders, who really don't enjoy the process (probably because we aren't very good at it.)

But we want that boat-- we're willing to spend months doing stuff we really don't much want to do to get that boat. And when we get it, quite often, we really like it.