Fastest Sailboat on the Planet!

Hydroptere 50+!

What hypotheticals? Answers to the questions would seem to be appropriate....
1) It's occurred to me that when considering the "value" of speed records that perhaps the sea state at the time should be given some weight. If Hydroptere does 53 knots in a 2 meter swell is a kite(or anything else) sailing in a shallow ditch at the same speed making as big a "mark" on the history of sailing?
2) If the boat doing 53knots has an auxilliary engine, a head,several bunks and a movable ballast system does that add to or subtract from the importance of such a record?

 

Hypothetical

Definition:

1. involving ideas or possibilities: existing as or involving something that exists as an unproven idea, theory, or possibility
the hypothetical existence of a Loch Ness monster

2. assumed for sake of argument: assumed or proposed for further investigation
The question is purely hypothetical.


So, again... what is the point you wish to make?

Keep in mind that nobody is forcing these guys to make these timed, speed runs. It would seem that if the sanctioning body which recognizes the scenarios for the record runs is stipulating so, that the records are what they are, regardless of conditions.

You tend to sympathetically support the big foiler and the canters with better descriptions when the kite guy is relegated to "is a kite(or anything else) sailing in a shallow ditch at the same speed making as big a "mark" on the history of sailing?

I would suppose (though I have no real idea if it's politically or functionally possible) Hydrop' is welcome to make their runs in Namibia or the French Trench. They could pay to have the timed zone dredged and widened in France, or they can have their boat taken down to Africa and have their own go in the same conditions. Nothing is stopping them that I can see.

For the record... the Africa/North Sea/ditch guys with kites are doing some extremely spectacular things by jamming along at 50+ knots. Why would you want to parse that effort with anything but complete admiration and subsequently leave the hypothesizing out of the understanding? These are completely different classes of wind powerd vessels, Doug. Isn't that enough of a distinction already?

Go ahead and weigh the realities of holding onto a kite control bar, keeping your feet on the board, yourself upright and pointed in the right direction... all at 50+ knots. I dare say that there are but a handful of folks on the planet who can do that and not get the crap splatted out of them. That's a pretty pure experience with minimal equipment. None of the other drivers of the vehicles you mentioned have as close a relationship with the forces that make for this type of enterprise.

 

Hydroptere 50+!

Anyone involved in speed sailing is doing good for sailing, in my opinion. To have a boat that will probably sail at its top speed in waves while carrying some of the accoutrements of cruising boats is simply awesome.
Whether or not these things will(or should) lend more
historical prominance to the Hydroptere effort and similar speed sailing efforts is worth pondering.....

 

Hydroptere: bigger boat, bigger budget, bigger spectacle, etc. Really the diesel makes it a motorhome though.
(kidding -sort of... )

The diesel is representative of Hydroptere's overengineering and the diminishing returns of complex systems. The loo is irrelevant, and I think no one will sleep at 40+.

As to the waves, I am fairly sure Hydroptere and/or its occupants would suffer badly if it was actually in waves at 40+knots for long. Staying above the waves is notable for that reason, as long as it does so.

What's cool is smart design, whether minimalist or over the top, aerospace, mega-budget.

Huge advances in sailing have come from adapting ancient design elements to modern materials with creativity. Hydroptere shows this, but also the classic engineer's achilles heel(s).

It's interesting to compare platforms and the engineering and financial requirements to get the job done. Consider Hydroptere, compare to a windsurfer, a powerboat...

Now look at kiteboards. No need for huge high-modulus masts and akas, appendages like a foiling multhull. No extra power/weight/structure design spiral like in a powerboat.

Kitesurfers hit record speeds while keeping the design and structures so simple you can just grab part A with the hands, part B with the feet, and go. Fast. And cheap. Adapting the advantages to bigger scale, naturally, may challenge their nature as well as the utility of the result.

Also worth looking at is the geometry that yields stability and performance. That's what was really gained from the Polynesians, I guess, and it has taken us roughly from 15 to 40 knots. But there is something to be gained from the speedboat, and the kite, too....

To me it all has value, but it's apples and oranges. Triumphs of engineering are impressive, so are triumphs of design that come by asking only the most important questions, and answering them the simplest way. Speed is a common denominator.

I've only injected occasional kite and windsurfing comments in the thread because I think there are basic elemental lessons to be learned, design-wise. Plus, they're fast.

 

Update on Hydroptere modifications

latest look at their web site shows:
- they're doing cavitation tunnel testing at simulated speeds of 45 to 55 knots, suggesting that indeed it seemed the engineeds estimate that cavitation has been a hindrance at some point, say around 47 knots
- they're going to be adding fairings (a "skin") to the arms, as many of us had wanted them to do


now can I say a word about recent posts?
- who cares which type of craft wins, the goal is ultimate speed! I can't fathom why some people feel the need to take camps (not to mention insulting each other)?
- it is conceptually wrong to look at just the marginal cost of producing the extra copy of a craft produced in large numbers (such as a kitesurf), and compare this to the cost of one large craft such as Hydroptere. Clearly tens of millions of dollars (or euros, to use a hard currency ;-) have been spent progressively developing then improving kites. So while the marginal craft clearly is cheaper, my bet is that from the total R&D spend, both approaches are about similar
- for example, a glider suit may cost only a couple thousand dollars, and they're still under development but maybe one day you'll be able to land with one, and while in free fall you can do 300 kph, does this mean that glider planes are meaningless I don't think so, it's just different. And again, the cumulative R&D spend to make these glider suit possible...


let us, please try to really:
- avoid insults, either direct, or indirect
- avoid taking camps when there is no point (this is not a war)
- encourage anyone who feel they should hate a big craft speed concept, to simply go on forums more of their liking, rather than waste their time and life and anger, on this one?

thanks

 

hi antoineb,

you took the words out of my mouth regarding the posting etiquette of certain individuals in this forum.
lets just all keep in mind that the only way to silence a troll is to ignore him.
DON'T FEED THE TROLL!

can't wait to see the souped up version of Hydroptere when they let her loose again next spring.
i also totally agree that for the record it doesn't matter how much money you spend to achieve it. just because you spend less on the actual record attempt and sail in the flattest possible water doesn't make it less or more worth.
i don't think anyone would want to take credibility away from Yellow Pages, because they sailed at Sandy Point in the flattest water possible either.

i don't really buy your argument though that the combined effort of the kitesurfing industry equals the same economics of a big budget sailing team like Hydroptere. what about the yachting industry? did they have no indirect contributions whatsoever to the team? i don't know where a team like Hydroptere would be without many other sailboat racing teams investing in research on materials and systems. their craft is unique in certain aspects, but they have not come up with the all the knowledge in sail technology, carbon mast construction and general setup of a racing yacht.

the kitesurfing industry R&D is investing virtually nothing into racing or speedsailing as it's just not an important part of the sport [yet]. all the kit the industry develops is made for jumping, freestyle tricks and waveriding.
it's quite different in the windsurfing industry as there is quite a long tradition of racing there.
the riders that did the top speeds are professional riders for sure, mainly sponsored by kitesurfing brands, because they expose the brands and the sport with what they do [which is not only speed sailing].
they use just standard production kites anyone can buy in the shop and use custom built boards that cost less and are about as difficult to build than a rudder for a 470.

anyone interested in a track analysis can go here to find the data:
http://www.intellimass.com/TrackData/Worlds Best Speeds/Alex Caizergues.htm


may the fastest one beat the record.

boogie

 

Hope nobody minded my little blague about the loo too much. Just humor. I think we all care about the sailing, not ...poop.

I am serious in my criticism of the diesel, though.

Also, I agree most "R+D" in kitesurfing has been duplicative and involved with style, marketing, patents issues. If you sift it down to "real" r+d, the whole industry might well compare to hydroptere, or cheaper. Only 2 or 3 kite companies have even done any wind tunnel testing, for example.

The point of my posting was to draw attention to the basics of high speed design. Cost/speed comparison is just a window to structural issues.

Stating the obvious I thought, but maybe a picture will do a better job.

My question is, where do you see structural efficiency?

Anyway, all just to ponder while awaiting the next developments....

 

Hydoptere 50+!

This isn't a dig at other speed sailing attempts because I feel that they are all valuable to sailing as a whole and very exciting to follow. But since this is a "Hydroptere" thread I do think that it is important to point out that ,in my opinion, Hydroptere is a sailboat designed to be able to make long passages at sea-not just short speed runs in shallow ,flat water. This is her magic: that a boat so designed could even be in the running for the title of Worlds Fastest Sailboat is an incredible achievement. And a development with huge implications for the future......

 

Update

There is a new video on the hydroptere web site showing some cfd simulation of the hydroptere speed version. They seem to investigate a canting rig and more aerodynamic shaped beams. Does anyone have some more information?

 

Well, so far, that has not been done with anything like the durability that it would take to cross an ocean. So, when this bad boy comes rolling out of the barn next spring, one of the first, open ocean oriented measures should be to establish that potential and get chugging across the Atlantic faster than Groupama 3 did it. Now, that would be impressive.

I'm actually more interested in the aero improvements to the boat than I am about the possibility of whether it can actually cross an ocean intact within its potential speed. For everyday sailors, there's, potentially, a lot to learn from the high speed aero improvements.

Chris

 

There are rumoured links between Alinghi and the Hydroptere folk.
The next AC is shaping up as a Multi-hull match ... any chance of a course racing version?

 

See the Hydroptere site for hydroptere.ch a smaller version that will be used for racing on Lake Garda.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the next AC in big foil assisted tri's or cats. Would be great for the Cup.

 

But can you have a 90 footer on the water and sorted out by July 4, 2008?

 

What's the Hydroptere like in light winds? I'm thinking if you want to focus on the fastest possible boat design....then one should focus on what is fastest most of the time. In that case you would design for light air sailing wouldn't you?
However I think the hydroptere is incredibly cool.

 

Hydroptere

The boat has retractable foils so that she can be sailed very quickly in lite air. She also foils in about 10-12 knots of wind with no ballast.
She has two rudders that you can see in some pictures of her foiling: her light air rudder is just in front of the foiling rudder. I'm not quite sure what they do for lateral resistance in light air. She has vertical foil tips that may be enough area in those conditions.