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  #16  
Old 01-24-2007, 08:44 PM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
... Because the way I read it they're awaiting certification for two records-the nautical mile and 500 meter?
And they set some sort of record across the channel beating Bleriot's plane if I remember correctly.
They... have also had the boat brought home in a doggie bag after the ocean had it for lunch... just to balance-out the hype a bit.

I don't believe anyone has said the boat sucks or that the program is not interesting. What has been said is that the claims are still not anything like substantiated, as of yet and that is a long way from a "real record", as you well know.

This position of yours is looking very much like that big claim about the Moth foiler grinding out some outrageous speed mark only to find out, rather inconveniently, that the software for the devices had been all screwed-up from the get-go. The reality was that that Moth hadn't even gone faster than its previous fast mark. That is embarassing, to say the least.

It looked pretty goofy to see the plastered headlines with such hype attached, headlines changed, puffy chests, etc. and then watch the balloon slowly settle into the sea when the reality of the gaff hit the wire.

Now, it just might be made good that the H boat has gone and created a recognizable speed run of merit. To that, I say, way to go guys... if it turns out to be so. It's just a little pre-mature to be doing a dance of any kind until that happens. As of right now, all we really know is that the boat went quickly with some measure of a lingering question from the formal recognition aspect.

Maybe it's partially about the willingness to plop these hyper claims in front of a very knowledgable crowd that is the force behind Boogie's questioning? Perhaps it would be good to approach this with some measure of casual detachment? After all, it's not you who are setting these marks. You're simply poaching the content of other posted sites for this info and then attaching your own measure of foam on top. Why is it so important to be the first to make these claims and then become insulted by the response when the process is refuted?
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  #17  
Old 01-24-2007, 08:59 PM
Doug Lord
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Hydroptere: 46.5 Knots!

boogie, "internet troll" ?? Gee, I thought your last comment was real interesting up to that absurd remark. So thats how you engage in discussion,huh? I've seen a couple of other people use that kind of tactic-kinda pitifull, really.
=========================
Just read a press release(on SA) about Maquarie Innovation when it did the run with some sort of structural failure: they were sailing in 22 knots of wind and before the incident had accelerated to 45+ knots.
I think it would be real interesting to find the wind speed when Hydroptere was doing 46.5 and compare that to MI and to boards and kites which as best I can tell require a much stronger wind(as a % of the speed they reach).
It seems like a huge difference in efficiency...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
News Flash-also from SA-I knew Mr. boogie was a speed sailing aficionado but(and this may explain
some of his comments) he is also involved with a project that is competing directly with the Hydroptere program as an equipment supplier!
My, my who'da thunk.......
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  #18  
Old 01-24-2007, 10:40 PM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
I think it would be real interesting to find the wind speed when Hydroptere was doing 46.5 and compare that to MI and to boards and kites which as best I can tell require a much stronger wind(as a % of the speed they reach).
It seems like a huge difference in efficiency...

And this means what in the "speed made good through the traps" scheme of things, Doug? Are you suggesting that a guy chugging a bathtub down the course at 50+ wouldn't still be a worthy record? Efficiency means nothing if you can crack it and nobody else is faster. When someone can beat you, then you take a look at efficiency as a source of more speed.

I'll bet you a hundred bucks right now, that if you could manage an official, 50 knot run on a kite board that you'd be damn near croaking on the glory, efficiency be damned.

Send the cashier's check to my studio address.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
News Flash-also from SA-I knew Mr. boogie was a speed sailing aficionado but(and this may explain some of his comments) he is also involved with a project that is competing directly with the Hydroptere program as an equipment supplier! My, my who'da thunk.......

Accusation without substantiation, Doug. Where's the attribution?
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  #19  
Old 01-25-2007, 04:20 AM
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PI Design PI Design is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
=========================
Just read a press release(on SA) about Maquarie Innovation when it did the run with some sort of structural failure: they were sailing in 22 knots of wind and before the incident had accelerated to 45+ knots.
I think it would be real interesting to find the wind speed when Hydroptere was doing 46.5 and compare that to MI and to boards and kites which as best I can tell require a much stronger wind(as a % of the speed they reach).
It seems like a huge difference in efficiency....
According to Bethwaite's HPS, windsurfers still (as of the date of publication - 1996?) don't sail faster than the wind. I must admit, I find that somewhat suprising, but I guess he knows what he is talking about.

I'm sure a kite board will break the speed record one day, but my old-fashioned, liddite views find it hard to accept them as fair competition. They're not really 'boats'...
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  #20  
Old 01-25-2007, 04:32 AM
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boogie boogie is offline
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hi PI Design,

the book [one of the best out there] was published in '93 if i remember right.

Windsurfers have come a loooooong way since then and sail regularly twice the windspeed, but when it comes to record speeds the efficiency goes down pretty quickly.
you can do 40kn of speed in around 20kn of wind, but to go any faster you need a lot more wind and then they sail about a similar speed as the true windspeed.
Finians record run of 48.7kn was in 45kn plus wind conditions with gusts up to 55kn on a broad 130deg course.

kitesurfers seem to get away with a little less wind for similar speeds, but are generally in the same ballpark as windsurfers.

cheers
boogie
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  #21  
Old 01-25-2007, 04:40 AM
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boogie boogie is offline
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OT, just scroll past here.

Doug,

you are repeatedly pulling random fact fragments out of nowhere, mixing them with out-of-context comments, combine them with half-knowledge of the subject and a dollop of wishful thinking to create a sensationalist headline.

and then argue for the sake of arguing by mixing more of the formula above into the discussion.
ever wondered why so many people get annoyed by you? because you are "Dougging" them. do you like this term better than trolling?


your news flash from Sailing Anarchy is really old news though and certainly no secret. it's just a very lame attempt at showing me in a bad light.

i have stated numerous times over the last few years here and on SA that i'm making custom racing fins for windsurfers and now "tadaaaaahhhh!!!!!" kite speed boards as of december 2005. i stopped making fins in july last year as a business and just do it for fun now.

for sure, my comments are influenced by my involvement in the speed sailing scene. how would i otherwise know about the rules to ratify records and all the other stuff? why would i have a speed-sailing-design blog?
contrary to your assumption that i have an axe to grind with the hydroptere team, i have had nothing but praise about their performance, just doubted their claims on official records.
i guess we'll see what comes off it. i don't have a problem to eat humble pie if it turns out they had their ***** together regarding official requirements for records.

now that you have brought SA into the game and this is not the right place, maybe we should make a poll on SA to see what the public thinks regarding you being a troll or not.
waddaya think?

i admire your enthusiasm for certain topics and projects,Doug, but would really hope you could channel all that energy to actually contribute to their results.
nnnnaaaahhhh... that's just crazy talk.

take care
boogie
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  #22  
Old 01-25-2007, 04:45 AM
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PI Design PI Design is offline
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I guess Bethwaite was only talking about their max speeds, which is slightly disingenuous of him, because he was comparing it to the 18ft skiffs racing speeds (not max speed) and claiming greater efficiency for the 18s. Lies, damn lies and statistics, huh...

Its interesting that the windsurfers need so much extra wind to go just a little quicker. That suggests they (windsurfers) will struggle to significantly improve on Finian's record.

Incidentally, a while ago I saw pictures of a windsurfer with a Moth-like T-foil. It seemed to be 'flying' quite well. What ever became of that, it doesn't seem to have taken the windsurfing community by storm, despite being much simpler than the Moth system? It looked quite fun, but I guess the improvements in speed are marginal as there is much boat in the water for a normal windsurfer anyway.
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  #23  
Old 01-25-2007, 05:23 AM
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boogie boogie is offline
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PI,

i don't think Bethwaite was disingenuous. his experience with windsurfers was probably mostly based on what was around in the late '80s.
windsurf course racing was usually on longboards and speed sailing on tiny speed needles.
performance in lighter winds with 2x windspeed performance has really only come up around in the new century with the advent of super wide and short Formula boards with big 11m^2 sails. and then filtered down to wider more efficient boards and sails for speed sailing.

hydrofoil windsurfers are difficult to make fast and stable enough but not too directionally stable.
the single foil version developed on Maui has big stability issues at speed, because you don't have active steering.
you are balancing on a single foil and steer with moving your CG around. as soon as you add another foil to gain longitudinal stability you can't turn, becasue turning the single foil is more like flying a plane where you have to lift the nose when banking into a turn not to lose altitude.

there definitely is room for improvement, but i don't think in its current configuration you will ever see a speed record being broken on one.
the cavitation problem is another hard nut to crack for any fully submerged foil in the water with limited power by a sail trying to break the record.

lots of bright minds working on it though. we'll see.

boogie
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  #24  
Old 01-25-2007, 07:19 AM
Doug Lord
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Hydroptere: 46.5 Knots!

The foilboard being sold by Rush Randall uses a version of the "air chair" foil system. It is not just one foil but two: a delta shaped forward foil with little winglets with a F & A tube leading to a smaller rear foil. What they do really well is jump; re-entry is usualy uneventfull. The foil planform and section are not good for achieving the highest speed possible but are excelent for allowing jumping and re-entry. Go to the Rush Randall site for some video( I think) or look under the second to last post on the "Moth on Foils" thread where DG Greenwood posted a link to some excellent video. In the video a second windsurfer- not using the air chair type foil system- is shown catching up to the foiler. I haven't sailed one of these boards but a guy locally says that it's not the speed-its the altitude and quiet that attracts him to the foilboard.
-------------------
One of the trully spectacular things about Hydroptere is that it is designed as an ocean going sailboat; it can tack, gybe etc and when it goes for records seems to sail in waves(see the video on the Hydroptere site of the speed run the other day)-probably because of the difficulty in finding smooth water for such a big boat. Many of the other speed sailing boards/machines including Maquarie Innovation are designed to sail one way in very smooth water. Some board records have been achieved sailing one way only in a ditch.
I've always wondered about "records" set in such a manner on a one way boat. The speeds are very cool though...
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  #25  
Old 01-25-2007, 08:38 AM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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Gosh Doug,

That was a really weak post. I called you out on your lack of attributable sources in your attack on Boogie and you say nothing. Boogie calls you out across the board and you say.... nothing.

Instead, we get some dribble about Hydroptere being a real sailboat compared to the specialized boats that steam down a speed trap for records.

Truly, I find this more than amusing in light of your constant blow about canting keel equipped yachts. Most sailing folks have big problems with constantly running, engine equipped boats so that they can move the keel about. They say the boats are not within the spirit of the craft when they install engines for these purposes. Now, here you are, spouting-off about specialized boats and implying, in some way, that they are not as deserving of the records they establish because they don't go out in the ocean.

So, which one is it, Doug? Do you believe that technological improvements are suitably deserving when they operate well within the rules of their class, or would you like to impose regulations, or perhaps notated asterisks, on boats that are not general in scope, as opposed to those that are?

Do avail yourself of all the other highly specialized, speed dedicated vehicles that are produced for ultra-high speed record attempts in all the other disciplines as an example.

While we are at it... could you give us all a quick rundown as to the last ocean-going experience of Hydroptere? You did say that it's a "trully (sic) spectacular thing", didn't you? So how about you tell us about it's last, truly spectacular fling with the big old ocean?

This is your turn to step-up, answer the issues, one at a time, as arrayed before you and get some cred going for yourself.
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  #26  
Old 01-25-2007, 09:49 AM
bistros bistros is offline
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Bethwaite's speed claims...

I've got HPS in front of me, and Bethwaite's position is that windsurfers are not capable of rounding the cans at greater than windspeed. When you add upwind and downwind components to the mix, along with the spectacular reaching speed, the AVERAGE speed around the course is less than windspeed.

The 18's round the course at slightly above windspeed, which is due to efficiency upwind in combination with downwind reaching to avoid dead downwind sailing.

Windsurfers have been enhanced beyond belief for peak speed on one point of sailing - at the expense of performance on others. This doesn't belittle their achievements at speed - it just clarifies the discussion.
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  #27  
Old 01-25-2007, 09:05 PM
Doug Lord
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Hydroptere: 47.2 Knots Today! / 33 to 47.2 in 6 seconds

Wow! These guys are on the move-congratulations to Team Hydroptere in another record(best yet for Hydroptere) for the boat in just a few days!
Man, I think they're going to get the world speed record before this is all over and I hope they do. This is an ocean going sailboat that is within just a hairs breadth of the record for the fastest sailboat on earth-good luck!
===================
Thanks to Jeff for updating the thread title to reflect the latest speed!
===================
UPDATE: This record for the boat was set in only 25 knots of wind! An extraordinary example of the efficiency of this remarkable design...
hydroptere
Address:http://www.hydroptere.com/accueil/ne...breves/75.html
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  #28  
Old 01-26-2007, 12:50 PM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
...in just a few days! ... Man,... I hope they do. ... the latest speed!... in only 25 knots of wind!
Gosh Doug, we're all getting just a little damp from the spattered foamy substance at the corners of your mouth.

And you had the temerity to question Boogie on his possible connection to the business at hand? That's truly rich, coming from a guy who is serving as the Hydrop shill.

I hope you're getting paid for this. Otherwise, you're looking very much like a boat groupie. Did you, at least, get a T-shirt and some matching Euro hotpants with the Hydroptere logo and some suitable slogan in Swiss French/German?

Now, if only they could get past that pesky business of actually having the records recognized. Otherwise, they are in the same compartment as an ocean-going kiteboard that has already cracked-off a 50+ knot run on several occasions.

No. check that... Hydrop still hasn't gone over 50, have they?

Question... Can Hydrop do this in three feet of water?

I'll answer that one.... In a word... No

They already proved that objects in the water can knock the crap right out of whatever it is they are doing. Unlike collisions that have crushed the keel off of Mike Golding's boat (which he then successfully sailed to the finish line) Hydroptere had to be towed back to land to have its parts thought-through.

Last edited by Chris Ostlind : 01-26-2007 at 01:50 PM. Reason: Mistake in understanding
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  #29  
Old 01-26-2007, 01:36 PM
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boogie boogie is offline
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CUT IT OUT KIDS!!!!

now go and play nicely with each other....

Doug, could you please mark retrospective edits to your posts a bit more clearly other than the +++++ or ====== lines that usually plaster your posts anyway?
very confusing other wise. there is nothing wrong with making a new post if you have something to add either.

Chris,
i don't know where you got it from that they were sailing on Lake Geneva, Switzerland?
that would be news to me. as far as i know they sail in the bay of Quiberon in France on the Atlantic. at least that's were it was when i last sailed there...
the kite guys sail that fast in three inches of water not feet! but of course they can sail in open ocean conditions with the same gear same as the windsurfers with their speed kit, just not quite as fast. most of the windsurfing and kite stuff is symmetric and is sailed back up the course.

take it easy guys.
boogie
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Last edited by boogie : 01-26-2007 at 01:39 PM. Reason: edited for spelling errors
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  #30  
Old 01-30-2007, 01:41 PM
antoineb antoineb is offline
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couple comments on Hydropère from a newbie

seems the Hydroptère discussion is becoming VERY passionate at times!

I have followed this story for a couple years now. I once sent them an email w comments on design, etc. That's how I learned that the boat had already done 45 knots in its previous version (though officially, they said "over 40")

anyway, here is my take.

first the facts
- boat has reached top speed of 47.2 knots. Top, not average over 500m
- 5 days earlier it had reached 46.5 knots top speed. As well as 43.05 knots on 500m and 41.7 knots on 1 nm.

on the equipment and the site
- this is a team of engineers, with a guy from Dassault Aviation managing the systems, etc. These guys have GPS equipment that is considered good enough for WSSRC
- they're sailing in the Baie (bay) de Quiberon, with their base at Trinité sur Mer. This site has already been used for sail speed record attempts so it would seem to me that WSSRC can ok the site quite rapidly, once they get a request (the team say they're doing all it can do have a speed sailing base ready as soon as possible)
- these are "boring" nerdy guys, people who would never claim any speed if they had not achieved it. The head guy, Thébault, has been at this for over 10 years so he's NOT going to over promise

on the potential for top speed
- at such speeds I think it's pretty clear that, provided the foils are good (and they seem to be), the main problem is going to be aerodynamic drag. This is typically proportional to the square of the velocity. So if you've achieved 47.2 and want 50, you'll need at least 12 percent more power. That's not to be taken for granted. But it is possible
- if you look at the boat, it's pretty clear the the main hull shows it's age. Also the transversal arm (made by Airbus) could have its aerodynamics much improved. Finally although the sails are now good-looking 3DL carbon sails with a nice mast (vs. the old-style sails of the previous version), it seems clear that you'd be much better off with a real wing (3-4-5 knots more?). But, at least for now, these guys want an ocean-going boat, and if it's also good for 500m then fine - but it's not the main aim
- I'd say this thing could do 50. But even if it does, they're not going to rush it. The sponsors have seen many (expensive) setbacks and would like to build momentum, progressively

on the potential for records:
- from day one the project, fathered by Eric Tabarly, was aimed at oceanic records. This boat now looks like it could average 35 knots over 24 hours (possibly more but let's stop at 35). That would be 840 nm. To be compared with the overall record by Orange II (120ft) at 767nm, and the record for a 60-footer at just 610nm. This would be a massive achievement, and change things much more than reaching 50 or 51 or 49 on just 500m
- if the 24 hour is achieved then clearly they'll be going for crossings. Now last year they didn't do so well: boat was good deal slower than normal 60ft multihulls in low breeze, and then one day they hit a small whale and bend the attachment point of the foil. Now the side hulls have a better shape, the foils can be lifted out of the water for low drag while not flying, and they have radar / sonars in the tip of the mainhull in the hope of averting collisions with objects / animals
- my take on crashes, is that an inverted T would be superior. You could fit it to an existing ocean going 60ft multihull. It would allow you to set up a "crash joint" (tips back a bit like a centerboard) which the tilted foils of Hydroptere don't allow. You'd have extra drag at low speeds though

Anyway, these are about as far from arrogance and over-confidence, as could be. I hope they finally see their many years of hard work rewarded one day.

Thoughts?
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